'Totting Points' Ban

I think the issue with a driving ban is whether it is more important that 'the punishment fits the crime' or that the punishment is 'proportionate to the crime'. Does a driving offence have to be punished with a driving consequence? And if so, does burglary have to be punished by bailiffs coming round and taking all your stuff, whereas fraud should just be a cash fine?
So if person A (say in London) gets a ban so has to take the tube to work for a while, that seems like both fitting and proportionate, but if person B (say in a rural location) gets a ban so loses his job and thus is effectively fined many thousands of pounds, that is fitting but not, I would say proportionate.
There is also the problem of the relationship between severity, probability of conviction and penalty. Doing 36 in a 30 is easy to catch (with cameras) and supposedly moderately dangerous, so there are lots of convictions and 3-point penalties, whereas driving like a d1ck is hard to catch and very dangerous, so very few convictions and 6-point (or higher) penalties. But totting up has a multiplier effect, creating severe penalties (for some) for a few moderate offences. If the penalty for parking on a double yellow was death, we would only need 10 parking wardens, which would be effective, but it is not proportionate to the offence.

Totting up, assuming they are not all at once, gives you the chance to adapt or change your driving style, again assuming they are for speeding. More so if driving is your lively hood.

Wack61 said:

Almost every day I drive through a village called Penketh ,

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Penketh, village ? Not the description I would have used.

I got done for speeding for the first time bigining of the year in my home town I'm normally carful with my speed in town. But I had just got my car from the garage after having a service and other works done. So it was from my transit to the Maserati didn't notice I was doing 36 in a 30. Easy done. I done the speed awareness course and they teach you a lot. If you have done one of these then there is no excuse for getting done as the signs for the speed limit are plentiful. This doesn't mean I agree with the punishment for the crime in every instance but the law is the law and I don't think it's fair if you have deep pockets you can get away with it. Do the crime do the time. You have 12 points you have no right to complain

I don't have that much to add but a couple of observations from previous experience. 1) Loss of income or undue hardship can only be argues once by a solicitor over the period of any current points - whereas you can represent yourself any number of times. 2) As elsewhere Undue hardship only works where the hardship is placed up on someone else (not the defendant) - ie they are harmed by the defendants actions, without their knowledge or agreement. 3) Turning up with an expensive Solicitor/brief can sour some courts against your case right from the off - "how dare you think you can get away with it just because you have money" 4) Turning up with a brief lets the courts know that you are expecting the worst and hoping to avoid a ban.
If the court has access to a local driver re-education program this is sometimes offered as an alternative to points. Note if you get points then the ban is much more difficult to avoid. if you say 'yes I was guilty' then the courts have little choice but to award points so any argument when you get chance to speak has to start with "whilst not necessarily admitting that I was at fault in this case I acknowledge that the evidence presents a difficult or different story. I recognise that my past behaviour leaves something to be learned and would respectfully request that the court allow me to make a suggestion of an alternative to points / ban etc which, I feel, may be disproportionate to the offence and would suggest ................. Driver Re-education, community service order, public flogging - whatever you can offer?
You always need to work with the courts to steer their thinking rather than against to knock them down. Solicitors (some) are only expert when they have something to work with such as proof, evidence, chain of custody, etc.

Steve GS said:

I got done for speeding for the first time bigining of the year in my home town I'm normally carful with my speed in town. But I had just got my car from the garage after having a service and other works done. So it was from my transit to the Maserati didn't notice I was doing 36 in a 30. Easy done. I done the speed awareness course and they teach you a lot. If you have done one of these then there is no excuse for getting done as the signs for the speed limit are plentiful. This doesn't mean I agree with the punishment for the crime in every instance but the law is the law and I don't think it's fair if you have deep pockets you can get away with it. Do the crime do the time. You have 12 points you have no right to complain

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The law is indeed the law (and Brexit is Brexit). But just as it is not 'fair if you have deep pockets you can get away with it', it is not fair if a particular punishment has a disproportionate impact on a particular person. Just as a £500 fine is nothing to some people, but a major problem for others, or a shoplifting conviction destroys your career if you are an accountant but not if you are a bricklayer, whatever the fine. The Courts should IMHO take some account of this.
https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...nd-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/

MarkMas said:

The law is indeed the law (and Brexit is Brexit). But just as it is not 'fair if you have deep pockets you can get away with it', it is not fair if a particular punishment has a disproportionate impact on a particular person. Just as a £500 fine is nothing to some people, but a major problem for others, or a shoplifting conviction destroys your career if you are an accountant but not if you are a bricklayer, whatever the fine. The Courts should IMHO take some account of this.
https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...nd-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/

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I agree circumstances should be taken into account. But if you have been done for speeding 4 times then you only have yourself to blame.

Interesting thread, and interesting to see the range of views.

My only comment is I think everyone has a responsibility to think about the impact of their actions, and to react accordingly.

For example, my role includes responsibility for compliance and ethics. This means, for me, I have to be super careful about not being alleged to have done anything that is in any way dodgy, or even questionable ethically. This impacts all kind of stuff, like how I do my tax returns, how careful I am when out on a night out, etc., etc...

Equally, if someone lives in a really rural setting, or has a job where being able to drive is so important, then I think they have a responsibility to recognise they need to be super careful around speed limits, etc.. especially once they've been caught once or twice.

I kind of agree that a court needs to be proportionate in the punishments it hands out (and I support the idea that richer people should get bigger fines than poorer people), but I think there has to be limits to this, and I don't see it as being the Court's role to prevent people from having to deal with disproportionate consequences of their actions.

zagatoes30 said:

Penketh, village ? Not the description I would have used.

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District, hamlet, it's not really a town , does have a long dual carriageway where 100s must get a ticket when the van is there so they can sit at lane ends lights 20 seconds sooner.

My opinion of future speed enforcement is many more average speed zones are coming , on the A6 north going into Preston they've replaced the single camera with average speed cameras and it's slowed everybody down and stopped the 30 past the camera drivers 40 every where else.

Steve GS said:

But I had just got my car from the garage after having a service and other works done. So it was from my transit to the Maserati didn't notice I was doing 36 in a 30. Easy done. I done the speed awareness course and they teach you a lot.

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That's something I hadn't thought of, I assume anyone on 12 points has also been on a speed awareness course so that's 5 chances before a ban

Interesting to see the different opinions on "law breaking". Would think there will be similar take in other areas of crime where folk convicted of shoplifting from supermarkets or possession of cannabis who also think the authorities should be targeting "real criminals". One man's meat........

Wack61 said:

I didn't say I don't speed ever , just not in 30 and 40 areas, 60,000 miles a year driving to all areas of london and most cities in the UK and a clean licence V 12 points in 4 years wasn't it

You're very unlikely to get caught anywhere outside built up areas , especially if you're in the 21st century and use waze, there are more spped traps but there's also much more technology on your side, you just have to spend 30 seconds setting it every trip rather than trying to make it up between traffic lights

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If that's true- I need technology. I am v careful in built up areas but have got 6 points- mainly on motorways in ave speed zones for no safety reason. Can anyone suggest something reasonably priced (not involing an I phone etc) which won't spoil the dashboard!

D Walker said:

Got to love a thread that promotes "discussion", Been driving nearly 30 years, never had a fine or points, pulled over once on M1 doing 85, passed the Officer my MOD form 90 (Army ID) with my driving licence. He kept me 20 minutes and asked if it affected the time I got home, he said if there is traffic/ accident you will be home no later, and let me go. Years later I was fed up of travelling from Larkhill to Teeside, think its 280 miles, I used to fly out the gate at 1.30 on a Friday and basically speed everywhere I wasnt held up and sometimes get home at 8.30 to 10.30. One Friday I had to stay later to finish a repair, left at 4, home for 9=9.30, after that I used to wait every week....You dont get there any quicker,
As Wack61 says, I put waze on all time, even if just running so i can see speed, admittadly its a Fiat 500 so takes a day to reach the 70 limit......

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If you bought a car you wanted to drive fast you may get caught
GTS?!

iainw said:

If that's true- I need technology. I am v careful in built up areas but have got 6 points- mainly on motorways in ave speed zones for no safety reason. Can anyone suggest something reasonably priced (not involing an I phone etc) which won't spoil the dashboard!

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6 more points and you won't have to worry about an untidy dashboard

Download WAZE and stick the phone on your windscreen , nothing commercially available comes close, I drive a van so it's 60 on dual carriageways and 50 on A roads , it's easy to exceed this , WAZE is user generated info as well as pre programmed camera locations and likely spots they hide

The advantage WAZE has if a wazer has driven past before you and spotted a copper hiding up a slip road or as the sneaky ones on the A55 do is put a copper in plain sight then 2 miles up the road a van on a bridge.

Twice I've been warned this little sting was in operation

I use TomTom, but suspect Waze is better for real-time camera warnings.

Wack61 said:

6 more points and you won't have to worry about an untidy dashboard

Download WAZE and stick the phone on your windscreen , nothing commercially available comes close, I drive a van so it's 60 on dual carriageways and 50 on A roads , it's easy to exceed this , WAZE is user generated info as well as pre programmed camera locations and likely spots they hide

The advantage WAZE has if a wazer has driven past before you and spotted a copper hiding up a slip road or as the sneaky ones on the A55 do is put a copper in plain sight then 2 miles up the road a van on a bridge.

Twice I've been warned this little sting was in operation

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Will try it mate thanks

iainw said:

If you bought a car you wanted to drive fast you may get caught
GTS?!

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I drive them all to make progress in the areas I feel " I can", not 30.40 or 50, btw, if you are getting caught in the average speed zones and you have cruise then you are daft. And the tired at the end of a long week doesnt wash, I've known squaddies who do weeks like you wont believe and drive back from exercise etc, and if they were speeding in military vehicles they get done civi and military, hardly ever happened....

Lets not get confused here , nobody can say they never go over 30 in a built up area but if a driver has multiple convictions in urban areas that says to me they're always driving at 35-40

I'd say 90% of my 30 is 30 as I make a conscious effort to do it , I do however find driving at 20 almost impossible

When I see drivers coming past me at 40 it's either 17-25 who think they're in a hurry or pensioners who drove at that speed in the 70s and 80s

In the 80s I had a mate who was annoyed because he'd been caught doing 41, 40 and they wouldn't have stopped him.

CatmanV2 said:

Cite an instance where a child abuser kept their job?

C

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Jimmy Savile...

Most of the clergy!

Lol epic fail there