Home Workshop/Garage Respray

Thanks. That's a worry as my dad was a plasterer by trade and I'm certainly nowhere near as good as him or even on the same planet.

We set up a small spray booth for cycle parts at one of our workshops.
The larges cost/issue was the air extraction system wich cost a fortune to come in with the regulations.

You would need to paint a fair few cars to recoup your expenditure.

safrane said:

We set up a small spray booth for cycle parts at one of our workshops.
The larges cost/issue was the air extraction system wich cost a fortune to come in with the regulations.

You would need to paint a fair few cars to recoup your expenditure.

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Thanks Peter. The plan is to do more in the future for sure. What air extraction system did you good for out of interest?

I'm researching and getting my head around all the different paint types and applications. It certainly isn't very straight forward an the govt/HSE haven't really made it definitively easy.

I can see there is:

Cellulose - Banned in most cases with some caveats for old/vintage cars or for licensed application by professionals?
Cellulose or more correctly Nitro-Cellulose is the the most common “classic” or older paint finish, It is easy to use and has relatively hard wearing characteristics. It dries by solvent evaporation, you mix the colour with cellulose thinner prior to spraying and once sprayed the solvents evaporate leaving the colour on the metal surface. It can be sprayed using basic breathing equipment (filtermask) and is fast drying having less dust ingress because the paint stays wet for a short time.It can also be applied by brush if a retarder is added. Nitro-Cellulose is an ideal DIY material.
Two Pack or 2K. - Possibly banned but can't work out if it is or isnt?
Two pack acrylic enamel is strictly a professional only product, like the name suggests it has 2 components, the colour and an activator/hardener, it will ot dry without this chemical reaction between the 2 products. It provides a far superior coating for the substrate because the molecules cross link when dry.The activator/hardener contains isocyanate which is extremely toxic, isocyanate is a repiratory sensitiserso inhalation can effect breathing, with potentially fatal results.This product requires special breathing equipment and is only sold to the professional painter.
Water Based Paint. - Fine to use
This system is the most common, used by both repairers and car manufacturers alike. The colour coat is water based but still needs to be protected by a 2 Pack clear lacquer, being water based it is far more environmentally friendly. It needs specialist equipment to encourage the paint to dry and because it still needs a 2 pack clear lacquer containing isocyanates (see description of 2 pack) it is only recommended to be used by professionals only.


So the water based systems are only water based base coats and the clear coat or lacquer is still harmful containing isocyanate's?

It is all a little confusing. Why is the accepted current modern system still using activator/hardener that contains isocyanate's which we know is extremely toxic and causes respiratory issues? Is it because there isn't an option yet as a full alternative?

Good work Rockits and much appreciated as I'm about to embark on something similar.
Moz

It's a minefield out there but I'm gradually picking my way through it. I'll post anything useful I come across that may be of help to anyone.

I'm a fairly capable guy and get a little fed up of trying to get people to do stuff. Recently experienced it with the garage works I needed to do to the roof to get the 4 post lift in. Ended up doing it myself. The work on this car was getting similar and the numbers seem to be very high. As a small business employing a couple of staff/contractors I know how expensive 'people' or 'labour' is but it all seemed to be getting a bit ridiculous. Most of the material costs are quite low and the biggest/majority cost by far seems to be the labour element.

One thing I learnt with the garage works. If you have a reasonable standard of works with a decent enough ability your work would be no worse often than a professional. Sometimes better. The added advantage of doing it yourself is you tend to take more time and care over your work which often when buying in a service isn't always done. It is often done to a price or to a time scale which I understand. However this can mean you pay a hefty premium to get a very good job done and get a job not quite so good when done for a reasonable price. To get a pro to take their time and work to a high standard is often not possible or very very expensive so again not really viable. Unless you are loaded and don't care I guess....which I'm not!

I am certainly not tarnishing every professional with the same brush here as there are some great pro's out there for sure. It is just that IMHO they are in the minority, hard to find or too busy. I am in this section in my world I believe. The majority is not what I am looking for as are often lacking in what I want to achieve. Seems to be the way of the world I'm afraid in my experience.

It is great to be able to do things yourself but becomes a burden sometimes as you end up doing it all yourself. Sometimes by being useless at something it takes that option out of the equation....which must be nice I guess albeit more expensive.

Much of this kind of work is not difficult. You just need some confidence, the right kit/environment & be prepared to make some mistakes. Being a quick learning must help.

Something you might not be aware or Dean in nearly all cases body shops spray water base. What you might not be aware of and is very interesting is waterbase is only the base colour coat. All top coat lacquers are 2 pack. So it sort of throws light on waterbase and it’s a false positive as the lacquer is still the nasty 2 pack.

So without certification and the proper booth you will have to spray water based base with a cellulose lacquer over the top.

To give you an idea of what could happen if you descide to spray 2 pack at home without the necessary apparatus, I bought my 1969 Opel from a guy in Diss. He worked in a body shop as his day job but did paint jobs at home in his shed. I say I bought the car from him it was actually his widow. He was 28, none smoker and died from lung cancer.

Conaero said:

Something you might not be aware or Dean in nearly all cases body shops spray water base. What you might not be aware of and is very interesting is waterbase is only the base colour coat. All top coat lacquers are 2 pack. So it sort of throws light on waterbase and it’s a false positive as the lacquer is still the nasty 2 pack.

So without certification and the proper booth you will have to spray water based base with a cellulose lacquer over the top.

To give you an idea of what could happen if you descide to spray 2 pack at home without the necessary apparatus, I bought my 1969 Opel from a guy in Diss. He worked in a body shop as his day job but did paint jobs at home in his shed. I say I bought the car from him it was actually his widow. He was 28, none smoker and died from lung cancer.

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Thanks Matt. Just been reading this exact thing. So they reduce the VOC's from the base but the clear coat has the same risks! Makes sense!! I agree some move forward is better than none but it is only half a job is it not?

I see Jawal do a 2K NON-Isocyanate Lacquer & Hardener. That seems to be the way forward for me and my lungs. I would rather paint a car or blow over again after 5 years rather than not be here to tell the tale.

Terrible thing to happen to that guy and sometimes shows that ignorance isn't bliss. I tend to over analyse and over research which is tedious but just the way I am. I guess much better to be this way than less researched. Or also relying on others to make sure you are safe.

I am sure there are plenty of places that paint but don't always wholly provide a safe working environment for staff. Often it takes several years before we realise the issues when it is a little too late.

How about as a half way house, do all the prep and supply it to a body shop in primer for paining only?

The paint finish would be as good as the prep and I suspect with a quality lacquer your talking about £800-£1k?

To give you an idea of body shop consumables. A gallon on hi quality lacquer is £400 and will just stretch to do two medium size cars. Base coat is much cheaper, £100 would cover that, 2 days/£500 labour to paint, 1 day/£200 to polish.

This is how I currently work with my projects and painter Phil

Yup, good idea & plan. I already had an idea like this & proposed it to the paint place literally at the top of my road. They didn't seem very interest & just do insurance work it seems.

Seems silly as they have all the facilities ready to go including an oven when required. There were two young's lads in there that didn't impress too much. Might try & speak to the boss or owner.

I think it depends if I would do this more often longer term to justify being geared up to do myself or not.

Conaero said:

How about as a half way house, do all the prep and supply it to a body shop in primer for paining only?

The paint finish would be as good as the prep and I suspect with a quality lacquer your talking about £800-£1k?

To give you an idea of body shop consumables. A gallon on hi quality lacquer is £400 and will just stretch to do two medium size cars. Base coat is much cheaper, £100 would cover that, 2 days/£500 labour to paint, 1 day/£200 to polish.

This is how I currently work with my projects and painter Phil

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Another positive on this one is the body is obviously fibre glass is white with the original colour of metallic red underneath. In essence it oldish just need rubbing down/prep but won't need primer or anything other than base and clear coat it seems. General consensus seems to be 2-3 coats base and 2-3 coats clear coat. Some have done up to 5 coats base and same again as clear coat to give a thicker amount to allow rubbing down. Doesn't seem to cost too much more to do more coats of base and/or clear coat in either time or money. While it is all there prep'd and ready to go it makes sense to do as many as possible without scrimping.

I wonder how many coats is plenty without going silly or causing issues due to too much base or clear coat?

I'm sure I put 7 coats on the MG, that was cellulose. I was always told you needed an air fed respirator to spray 2 pack, and it wasn't really a DIY option.

Seems like 3-4 coats of base with 4-5 of clear cost seems sensible.

I think a pro shop does less but their expert at getting heavy thick coats without runs. I would say your estimate for a novice is spot on.

I didn't get runs, but I think there were a couple of sags I needed to cut back. Also be careful of the weather at the time, no damp days or cold as it can bloom, ( I whitish dull effect.) I did three cars over 3 or 4 years, one was quite good the other two needed lots of flatting and afterwork to get a decent finish.

I can still remember my brother painting his MK3 Ford Zodiac outside his flat (late 70’s) cellulose of course, lots of it !
We then flatted it back (flies and all) and his mate came and machine polished it - looked pretty darn good from what I remember - those were the days !

Scaf said:

I can still remember my brother painting his MK3 Ford Zodiac outside his flat (late 70’s) cellulose of course, lots of it !
We then flatted it back (flies and all) and his mate came and machine polished it - looked pretty darn good from what I remember - those were the days !

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Those were the days indee. My mate painted his Avenger in black Smoothrite, then it rained!

Sorry to have speed-read the thread, but I must chime in with a resounding 'DO IT'!

The last car I painted was my mums VW polo 30 years ago, and I remember the fun to this day. It was done outside. It was solid, not metallic paint, and white too. I remember it went on almost perfect from the gun. This was by then the 4th car I had completely painted (2 VW Beetles and and Fugitive V8 rail!). Flatting down is easy and shows all irregularities as shiny spots. Just take it slow and practice quite a lot with viscosity. You want a coat just heavy enough to self level, but not to run! Even it it does run though, (or a fly lands in there) its not the end of the world. Just a little more wet ad dry and paint.

One diamond trick I self taught myself (that I have not seen repeated) was regarding the window rubbers. You can remove the windows and rubbers (PITA) or keep them put and thread a length of plastic tube behind the lip to lift them off the bodywork. That 6mm (or so) plastic drip watering hose would be perfect. The paint then goes behind the rubbers. A little OCD maybe?

Enjoy the process!

azapa said:

Sorry to have speed-read the thread, but I must chime in with a resounding 'DO IT'!

Enjoy the process!

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Thanks. I'm pretty much 99% there to do in house....well in garage! I'm sure it will be another great adventure of the unknown.

You don't know until you try is my motto. I'm certainly one of life's tryers so another try of something new won't be so bad I don't think.

... and the best part.. you're learning on a mates car