Crazy price for a ghibli cup in a very sorry state

Lozzer

Member
Messages
1,309
We’ve got Dean Smith on snapping duties too - he does the Audi/Aston Martin press photography. It was a great day - bittersweet, for certain reasons - but a great day, with one of the finest snappers, in a great location, with a great car.
Hope my words do it justice.
A number of Maserati owners/enthusiasts would love to attend what you do just as onlookers I'm sure, even in limited numbers.
 

joker222sr

New Member
Messages
5
First Open Cups were based on MY94, later on GT.
Every day is a school day... although maybe not for everyone at the moment!

I've always had an interest in the Ghibli Cups and would love to own one if funds ever permit. But I always thought the Open Cups and road Cups all had the same spec 330bhp engine.

Can anyone list the actual technical differences between the engines and power outputs in the Cup road car, the first generation Open Cups and the second generation Open Cups?

John
 

Nayf

Member
Messages
971
15 Cups were built with the 2.8-litre engine too. And some 2.8s could be updated to Cup spec - Harry Metcalfe had a grey/green 2.8 auto that was upgraded, then a ‘proper’ Cup.
Enrico’s site is a good source
 

Nayf

Member
Messages
971
A number of Maserati owners/enthusiasts would love to attend what you do just as onlookers I'm sure, even in limited numbers.
It always surprises me when people say they’ve enjoyed photoshoots. It largely involves standing around in the elements with Co-op sandwiches. Often in the rain. Or boiling to death in the sun.
 

joker222sr

New Member
Messages
5
15 Cups were built with the 2.8-litre engine too. And some 2.8s could be updated to Cup spec - Harry Metcalfe had a grey/green 2.8 auto that was upgraded, then a ‘proper’ Cup.
Enrico’s site is a good source
Not sure if that was in response to my post but I already know all of that thanks, I read evo magazine from issue 1 and I've spent many many hours over the years reading Enrico's great site.

But it only mentions one type of 330bhp Cup engine hence my question above. Keen to learn more if there's more info out there, I thought I knew a decent amount about the Cup cars but know nothing about different engine variants. Edited to say other than the obvious 2.0 vs 2.8 differences

John
 

Nayf

Member
Messages
971
Not sure if that was in response to my post but I already know all of that thanks, I read evo magazine from issue 1 and I've spent many many hours over the years reading Enrico's great site.

But it only mentions one type of 330bhp Cup engine hence my question above. Keen to learn more if there's more info out there, I thought I knew a decent amount about the Cup cars but know nothing about different engine variants. Edited to say other than the obvious 2.0 vs 2.8 differences

John
Apologies didn’t mean to come across as condescending - reading it back it rather did: my apologies.
 

Nayf

Member
Messages
971
Sounds great! ;)
I’ve put something up on my social today about the time we tried to recreate the Birmingham Superprix at 4am on a Sunday morning. I nearly got into a fight in a petrol station and the photographer got threatened with a knife...
 

spacecadet

Member
Messages
338
Can anyone list the actual technical differences between the engines and power outputs in the Cup road car, the first generation Open Cups and the second generation Open Cups?
The first series 95 Open Cups had 320bhp, while the second series 96 Open Cups (EVO) had 330bhp. See the attached photos, sorry for the quality but I only found these in my documents.

First series were quite close to their MY94 origin and had issues on the track for example because of the weak brakes. This was the first prototype: https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/maserati/ghibli/1994/550692

The EVO kit (to upgrade the 95 cars) included new diff (I guess the same as the GT), new braking system (same as in F355), redesigned suspension, the body kit (front and rear bumper, large air intakes, rear spoiler), the Tecnomagnesio wheels, and probably some other bits.

71017

71018
 

joker222sr

New Member
Messages
5
The first series 95 Open Cups had 320bhp, while the second series 96 Open Cups (EVO) had 330bhp. See the attached photos, sorry for the quality but I only found these in my documents.

First series were quite close to their MY94 origin and had issues on the track for example because of the weak brakes. This was the first prototype: https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/maserati/ghibli/1994/550692

The EVO kit (to upgrade the 95 cars) included new diff (I guess the same as the GT), new braking system (same as in F355), redesigned suspension, the body kit (front and rear bumper, large air intakes, rear spoiler), the Tecnomagnesio wheels, and probably some other bits.

View attachment 71017

View attachment 71018
Wow that's great info thanks, just what I was hoping for! Don't suppose you know how the extra 10bhp was gained between 95 and 96 do you?

John
 

spacecadet

Member
Messages
338
No, sorry. But I would say, timing, different map and the turbo plus exhaust, just like in the Cup. The engine has to be the same.

After the official series were closed some of these cars were continued racing and the engines further tweaked by individual workshops.
 

gemini

Junior Member
Messages
70
15 Cups were built with the 2.8-litre engine too. And some 2.8s could be updated to Cup spec - Harry Metcalfe had a grey/green 2.8 auto that was upgraded, then a ‘proper’ Cup.
Enrico’s site is a good source
When I bought my 2.8 Japanese cup, I did contact M Collina to have more informations about my car and he said that there was 27 Japanese 2.8 cup.
I quote him : This car was one of the 27 Ghibli Cup produced with 2.790 cm3 engine type AM574 as requested at that time by the Maserati Importer in Japan.

The engine was the same that the one in the 2.8 ghibli but there was a different file in the ECU allowing for more boost.
By increasing the boost pressure, the car demonstrate 305ps@6100rpm and 43.5mkg@3650rpm.
Also, the final drive ratio is lowered by about 6% (3.77 vs 3.91), this one made a big difference.

I think that 3 RHD 2.8 were converted to cup specification in UK, but I don't think it was done by the factory.

Having driven both (2.0 and 2.8 cup), the 25HP difference in the last 900 rpm can't compete with the 30-50hp difference from 1500 to 6000rpm in favor of the tweaked 2.8 (my probably biased opinion).
I don't have the power curve from the tweaked 2.8 but you can compare the Cup curve with the standard 2.8 and add about 20-30HP everywhere to have an idea.





Do you know if the final ratio of the 2.0 cup was lowered too?
 

dt95aac

Junior Member
Messages
49
The first series 95 Open Cups had 320bhp, while the second series 96 Open Cups (EVO) had 330bhp. See the attached photos, sorry for the quality but I only found these in my documents.

The EVO kit (to upgrade the 95 cars) included new diff (I guess the same as the GT), new braking system (same as in F355), redesigned suspension, the body kit (front and rear bumper, large air intakes, rear spoiler), the Tecnomagnesio wheels, and probably some other bits.
That is some good info and I think kind of explains a myth I have heard.

My mechanic who is one of the factory trained guys who fixed the cars from new, claims that all 2.0 coil on plug cars (basically ABS and later) had 320hp.

I have never been able to find evidence to support this, but this guy knows the cars inside and out and was chief mechanic in the dealership through the whole biturbo era.
The cars sold really well in Greece due to the engine size. Anything equally powerfull and luxurious had a bigger engine which was and still is prohibitive due to the Greek tax system.

My understanding is that the 2.0 Cup cars had the following differences (engine wise) from the regular cars:
-Ball bearing turbos
-2.8 heads
-Different mapping
-Silicone hoses
-Different rear silencers
 

ian roberts

Junior Member
Messages
42
I got my copy Nathan, a good read as usual. The cups are really nice but expensive now. Looks like one of the UK cups must have your name on it soon ?
 

Nayf

Member
Messages
971
I got my copy Nathan, a good read as usual. The cups are really nice but expensive now. Looks like one of the UK cups must have your name on it soon ?
Some saving yet to go! But I meant what I said – my top three cars are the Alfa Romeo SZ (haven't driven it yet, but I've driven a similar 75 Cloverleaf) and the Lancia Delta HF Integrale, and the Cup combines the best elements of those cars in the driving experience.*
According to my man maths, that's a saving of around £100,000 at least so I shall be putting Cup ownership to the finance committee (wife) as a cost-saving exercise. Ahem.
How's your fleet?

* well, until it rains.
 

ian roberts

Junior Member
Messages
42
Some saving yet to go! But I meant what I said – my top three cars are the Alfa Romeo SZ (haven't driven it yet, but I've driven a similar 75 Cloverleaf) and the Lancia Delta HF Integrale, and the Cup combines the best elements of those cars in the driving experience.*
According to my man maths, that's a saving of around £100,000 at least so I shall be putting Cup ownership to the finance committee (wife) as a cost-saving exercise. Ahem.
How's your fleet?

* well, until it rains.
Yes the SZ is right up there in the top 5, I also had a F reg 75 3.0 V6 as well which was great, that engine in the SZ with those looks is a winner for me. Integrale is right up there as well....in yellow. The 1999 Ghibli GT is absolutely sweet at the moment, I have been using it every few days for food shopping, no issues, no gremlins, always runs well and looks so great. The 1994 Ghibli 2.0 LHD is just about to go in for a gentle recommissioning, it hasn't been used since I bought it back but just needs a caring look all over for a few niggles. I cant wait to get them both together for pics, especially with matching colour Rosso Oriente and one with cream and one with black interior. The 612 is as epic as usual and gets used every week as Im working at home now. I had a major blast in it at the weekend and it never fails to leave me smiling. Of course the ones I would like to add once my lottery numbers come in is a Shamal and an 88 1/2 Countach both in red. I will whisper this on this site but i have also been building a countach replica in the garage, not sure if i told you that when you were here...... now I've said it ......gulp !!!!
 

Nayf

Member
Messages
971
Yes the SZ is right up there in the top 5, I also had a F reg 75 3.0 V6 as well which was great, that engine in the SZ with those looks is a winner for me. Integrale is right up there as well....in yellow. The 1999 Ghibli GT is absolutely sweet at the moment, I have been using it every few days for food shopping, no issues, no gremlins, always runs well and looks so great. The 1994 Ghibli 2.0 LHD is just about to go in for a gentle recommissioning, it hasn't been used since I bought it back but just needs a caring look all over for a few niggles. I cant wait to get them both together for pics, especially with matching colour Rosso Oriente and one with cream and one with black interior. The 612 is as epic as usual and gets used every week as Im working at home now. I had a major blast in it at the weekend and it never fails to leave me smiling. Of course the ones I would like to add once my lottery numbers come in is a Shamal and an 88 1/2 Countach both in red. I will whisper this on this site but i have also been building a countach replica in the garage, not sure if i told you that when you were here...... now I've said it ......gulp !!!!
Ah yes you showed me the Countach, how far is that along now?
There’s a red RHD Shamal in Australia here. https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1994-Maserati-Shamal-Manual/SSE-AD-5881073?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-5881073
Works out at about £65k, and not too many KMs on the clock
 

del mar

Junior Member
Messages
240
When I bought my 2.8 Japanese cup, I did contact M Collina to have more informations about my car and he said that there was 27 Japanese 2.8 cup.
I quote him : This car was one of the 27 Ghibli Cup produced with 2.790 cm3 engine type AM574 as requested at that time by the Maserati Importer in Japan.

The engine was the same that the one in the 2.8 ghibli but there was a different file in the ECU allowing for more boost.
By increasing the boost pressure, the car demonstrate 305ps@6100rpm and 43.5mkg@3650rpm.
Also, the final drive ratio is lowered by about 6% (3.77 vs 3.91), this one made a big difference.

I think that 3 RHD 2.8 were converted to cup specification in UK, but I don't think it was done by the factory.

Having driven both (2.0 and 2.8 cup), the 25HP difference in the last 900 rpm can't compete with the 30-50hp difference from 1500 to 6000rpm in favor of the tweaked 2.8 (my probably biased opinion).
I don't have the power curve from the tweaked 2.8 but you can compare the Cup curve with the standard 2.8 and add about 20-30HP everywhere to have an idea.





Do you know if the final ratio of the 2.0 cup was lowered too?
I fitted the differential from an automatic QP Evo to my Cup, cant remember if i went 3.77 to 3.91 or the other way, i will look next time i am underneath the car. I think i paid £250 for it from a breakers in Leeds. I changed the seals and had to swap the speedo pick up as the connections were different. You do have to drop the rear subframe to get it out though.

The plan was to give greater acceleration at the expense of top speed, could i tell the difference ??