Idle dropping

Oneball

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11,883
Those are the results I’d expect. I can’t think of a mechanism where the wastegate would affect the MAF readings.
 

CatmanV2

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51,409
Those are the results I’d expect. I can’t think of a mechanism where the wastegate would affect the MAF readings.

Lack of flow across the turbine prevents the turbo from drawing in the inlet. As I sort of got to the point of suspecting, removing vacuum wasn't fixing bank one, it was breaking bank 2. Effectively bank 1 wastegate has been open all the time (although the exhaust was flowing around the 'closed' wastegate and probably out of the pivot hole) By removing vaccum from bank 2, we were simply matching the performance, and balancing things out.

Of course, until it's *fixed*, there is still some conjecture here.

C
 

boomerang

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508
Good you found the culprit.
Sorry for you, it's going to be a costly repair.
Btw: is this something all of us can expect when we arrive at that milage?
 

CatmanV2

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51,409
Good you found the culprit.
Sorry for you, it's going to be a costly repair.
Btw: is this something all of us can expect when we arrive at that milage?

According to Jason (who put me in the right direction) it's not uncommon, and it's nearly always bank 1. Go figure...

There's about £50 of o-rings and seals (as well as obviously the manifold gasket), although mostly they are just o-rings and bits so probably utterly un-needed. According to my book, it's 6 hours of labour, but that includes removing the front transmission shaft, which clearly, we don't have.

So for second hand / refurb it's the thick end of £1500 if you want to swap the oil and the coolant at the same time.

*Assuming* this solves it, I'll do a quick cost run down of the entire process, and what money was 'wasted'

I got some new tools, which I won't regard as a waste. Some turbo hoses and clips, likewise.

Much of the parts I can claw back. The DV was way cheaper than ebay, so that can go on there. Similar the cat, which I'm pretty sure is OK, I can probably get my money back on. The turbo can be re-furbished. Either I'll sell it as is, or get a kit and fix it up. Will offset a chunk of that as well.

Obviously the labour to replace the cat is sunk, and I can't do much about the labour to swap out the turbo itself, however, given that I've not had a car break down for 10 years, I'm OK with this sort of cost level.

C
 

Oneball

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11,883
The cat was rattling in the casing wasn’t it, so that definitely needed changing before it disintegrated.
 

Scaf

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7,149
According to Jason (who put me in the right direction) it's not uncommon, and it's nearly always bank 1. Go figure...

There's about £50 of o-rings and seals (as well as obviously the manifold gasket), although mostly they are just o-rings and bits so probably utterly un-needed. According to my book, it's 6 hours of labour, but that includes removing the front transmission shaft, which clearly, we don't have.

So for second hand / refurb it's the thick end of £1500 if you want to swap the oil and the coolant at the same time.

*Assuming* this solves it, I'll do a quick cost run down of the entire process, and what money was 'wasted'

I got some new tools, which I won't regard as a waste. Some turbo hoses and clips, likewise.

Much of the parts I can claw back. The DV was way cheaper than ebay, so that can go on there. Similar the cat, which I'm pretty sure is OK, I can probably get my money back on. The turbo can be re-furbished. Either I'll sell it as is, or get a kit and fix it up. Will offset a chunk of that as well.

Obviously the labour to replace the cat is sunk, and I can't do much about the labour to swap out the turbo itself, however, given that I've not had a car break down for 10 years, I'm OK with this sort of cost level.

C
Just imagine what is mere mortals that would have had to pay if we just booked it into a main dealer.o_O

I have total respect for those of you that have the skills and tenacity to work through these things yourselves :cool:
 

CatmanV2

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51,409
Just imagine what is mere mortals that would have had to pay if we just booked it into a main dealer.o_O

I have total respect for those of you that have the skills and tenacity to work through these things yourselves :cool:

This was very much the blind being led by those with skill. It was even mis-diagnosed by independents (although we do need to be careful that until it's fixed, it's not fixed)

And I can't do the work. It's well beyond my ken. I've just been doing the prodding.

Main dealer ball park:

Assuming the got it right in terms of the diagnosis first time:

Parts IRO £3k (assuming replacement oil and fluids)
Labour £900 (6 hours and an optimistic £150 ph)

£3900+VAT = £4680

C
 

philw696

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28,175
To be fair I bet there's people on here earning £1200 a day or being charged out at that fee in consultancy rolls.
 

Scaf

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7,149
To be fair I bet there's people on here earning £1200 a day or being charged out at that fee in consultancy rolls.
To be clear, I am not having a pop at the cost of professionals, more that they would need to be paid for all the investigation and “trial and error”.
It was unlikely that they would ag e gone for a “first time” diagnosis and fix,
 

philw696

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Messages
28,175
To be clear, I am not having a pop at the cost of professionals, more that they would need to be paid for all the investigation and “trial and error”.
It was unlikely that they would ag e gone for a “first time” diagnosis and fix,
Unfortunately there's no quick and easy diagnosis Sam even if you've encountered the same problem before.
Electronic diagnosis computers can lead you up the wrong avenue.
In the past we would use a length of heater hose a long screw driver and our ears.
 

CatmanV2

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Messages
51,409
To be fair I bet there's people on here earning £1200 a day or being charged out at that fee in consultancy rolls.

There certainly are, or would be if (at least some) weren't PAYE.

To be clear, I am not having a pop at the cost of professionals, more that they would need to be paid for all the investigation and “trial and error”.
It was unlikely that they would ag e gone for a “first time” diagnosis and fix,

Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's *tempting* to say 'Oh, Jason knew exactly what it was from the off' but that's a bias, because we know (or at least suspect) he's correct. If he's wrong, it would be 'just another guess'

Unfortunately there's no quick and easy diagnosis Sam even if you've encountered the same problem before.
Electronic diagnosis computers can lead you up the wrong avenue.
In the past we would use a length of heater hose a long screw driver and our ears.

And, even more importantly, what's *between* your ears and the years of experience.

As for the computers: You've got unstable idle readings and one MAF is reading much lower, that immediately points to the MAF, and we know that was wrong. So agree totally. They can help but at the end of the day, experience makes the difference

C
 

CatmanV2

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51,409
Picked her up. Only a short drive, but at full operating temp, idle *seems* rick steady. No messing around in traffic / stop and go. You can feel boost coming on. Confidence is good.

But the MAF readings are still all over the place. After a longer test, if it stays as is I'm just going to take the win and leave the MAF as 'one of those things'

C
 

Oneball

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Messages
11,883
Yay!!

Is there enough length in the loom to change the maf plugs so bank 1 is now plugged into bank 2?
 

CatmanV2

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51,409
Yay!!

Is there enough length in the loom to change the maf plugs so bank 1 is now plugged into bank 2?

I don't *think* so but might make up some adapters and see what happens. They're a bit fiddly to get to and in honesty, if it runs like this from here on, I'm literally minded to stuff it!

I need to check / replace some of the hoses and clips as they got a bit brutalised in some of the testing, which might have a bearing, but feels unlikely.

If I get a chance I'll do some more checks tomorrow, see how far out they are.

C
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
51,409
Well I'm not doing anything in this weather, but picked up the old turbo. While I'm *cautious* to say 'Fixed' it sat on the ramps at F1 for 30 minutes idling super smooth while they sorted the tracking. Not a blip, hesitation or anything. Pulls like mad. Even being 'cautious' I nearly ran out of road...

And the wastegate bushing is totally gone


C
 

philw696

Member
Messages
28,175
Well I'm not doing anything in this weather, but picked up the old turbo. While I'm *cautious* to say 'Fixed' it sat on the ramps at F1 for 30 minutes idling super smooth while they sorted the tracking. Not a blip, hesitation or anything. Pulls like mad. Even being 'cautious' I nearly ran out of road...

And the wastegate bushing is totally gone


C
Nice to see the fault Chris.
Hope it hasn't cost a fortune to put right.
The only way you get to the bottom of issues like these is removing and inspecting components.
Glad she's back on the road.