Beware of fitting new F1 Pump Relay

[del mar]

NLA Relays

Morning,

I had the same prob with a relay in a Ghibli no longer being available, with Jim's help I opened up my old one and found a burnt out resistor. 25p for a new one and a bit of solder and that was it fixed.

There are picture on the "other site"

Del

 

[conaero]

Thanks Del Mar, could not find it, any chance you can do a bit of cut and pasting????

If you have issues with the pics, just pm the link to me.

A Maserati fix for 25p, Im loving that.

 

[SpyderNick]

Hi all,

just to let you know Shop4parts cant get the relay any more, I just had this back from them.

Hi



Apologies the part number S4P4812 has now exhausted all supply chains, and I am afraid we can no longer supply the part number/s. Therefore I have had to cancel your order once gain I am sorry for any inconvenience caused.



Kind Regards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael Holdsworth
Site Administrator
SHOP4PARTS


Tel: +44 (0) 1274 734082

Fax: +44 (0) 1274 723890
http://www.shop4parts.co.uk

 

[urbanmaser]

The relay which gave me the problem was from a Lancia......not sure if the Alfa relay is the same but there must be a relay somewhere out there that will do the job. In the meantime I have put back the original relay and am keeping my fingers crossed that it does not misbehave

 

[Grinzzz]

Anyone got a working "old" relay? I could get it tested for exact specs and then start looking outside automotive applications for alternatives.

 

[Parisien]

Grinzz, there have been issues about the relay before, plus when they up-graded the F1 pump and they then up-graded the relay, so you need to match the two to start with!

P

 

[Geofflyn]

Loz my car is an 06 Gransport. I recall some photos on the forum of the relay in situ but I cant find them. Do we have photos of what this thing looks like when its in place?
Cheers
Geoff

 

[Guest 1678]

Just managed to order the part no. 11130287 from Jamie Porter at the Alfa Workshop - says in stock. It is 6.55am, so I will wait and see when the order is fulfilled:

www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/parts/156_Selespeed_pump.shtml

Damon

 

[Geofflyn]

Just managed to order the part no. 11130287 from Jamie Porter at the Alfa Workshop - says in stock. It is 6.55am, so I will wait and see when the order is fulfilled:

www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/parts/156_Selespeed_pump.shtml

Damon

What year car is outgoing in Damon?
Geoff

 

[mjheathcote]

This relay issue puzzles me. The relay is an electrical switch, a 12 volt low current signal energises the relay allowing a high 12 volt current to flow to the F1 pump, and the pump motor runs. So as long as the relay amp rating is higher than the ampage rating of the F1 pump motor, all should be well. So you should be able to use the 'standard' relay or a latter 'uprated' relay with the original F1 pump, but assuming the latter 'uprated' F1 pump has a higher current requirement, the 'uprated' relay must always be used with that pump.
I can't understand how the relay gets blamed for F1 pump failures. As the relay is just a switch, on or off, how can this cause the F1 pump to fail? Surely the F1 motor fails because it's worn out after completing x number of cycles, you can't blame the relay for that, it's told by the cars ECU when to energise.
The only issue I can see, is that the relay fails due to either a) incorrectly sized, too low a rated current capacity. b) it exceeds it's design number of switch cycles c) poor quality and it burns out.
Have I understood correctly the relationship between the relay and pump?
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Guest 1678]

What year car is outgoing in Damon?
Geoff

Car is a Nov 2004 - so very early.

 

[SpyderNick]

This relay issue puzzles me. The relay is an electrical switch, a 12 volt low current signal energises the relay allowing a high 12 volt current to flow to the F1 pump, and the pump motor runs. So as long as the relay amp rating is higher than the ampage rating of the F1 pump motor, all should be well. So you should be able to use the 'standard' relay or a latter 'uprated' relay with the original F1 pump, but assuming the latter 'uprated' F1 pump has a higher current requirement, the 'uprated' relay must always be used with that pump.
I can't understand how the relay gets blamed for F1 pump failures. As the relay is just a switch, on or off, how can this cause the F1 pump to fail? Surely the F1 motor fails because it's worn out after completing x number of cycles, you can't blame the relay for that, it's told by the cars ECU when to energise.
The only issue I can see, is that the relay fails due to either a) incorrectly sized, too low a rated current capacity. b) it exceeds it's design number of switch cycles c) poor quality and it burns out.
Have I understood correctly the relationship between the relay and pump?
Thanks,
Mike

Hi Mike,

My understanding of the issue is that the Pump is only designed to run in short spurts and therefore if the relay fails for what ever reason in the on position then the pump is activated continuously which then burns out the motor.
Its not a very good design in my opinion. I am about to change the relay in my Spyder having done 25k since purchase and i have no idea if it has the original or the newer pump, but i am replacing the relay with the newer 50amp one so should be covered.
I do have some experience of this "Rubish" setup as the relay failed on my F355 and burnt out the F1 pump on that. I was very lucky that my dealer had found a company that would replace the motor part of the pump, Still at £650 though and then fitting on top, all because a £10 relay failed !!!

 

[mjheathcote]

Hi Mike,

My understanding of the issue is that the Pump is only designed to run in short spurts and therefore if the relay fails for what ever reason in the on position then the pump is activated continuously which then burns out the motor.
Its not a very good design in my opinion. I am about to change the relay in my Spyder having done 25k since purchase and i have no idea if it has the original or the newer pump, but i am replacing the relay with the newer 50amp one so should be covered.
I do have some experience of this "Rubish" setup as the relay failed on my F355 and burnt out the F1 pump on that. I was very lucky that my dealer had found a company that would replace the motor part of the pump, Still at £650 though and then fitting on top, all because a £10 relay failed !!!

I can understand that, the pump only runs when required to keep the pressure in the system up. So relay failure I would image being a poor quality or too low a rated relay being overloaded, causing it to overheat and fuse the contacts together totally or partially, sticking, making the pump to run longer than necessary thus burning out the pump motor.
If this is such a critical relay, which appears it is, I am amazed that someone has not come up with a replacement kit to replace the relay and relay holder with a more 'industrial' unit, more up to the number of cycles required and current flow, and quality, to remove the problem. Can't be that difficult being an electrical swop, rather than a mechanical swop, we are not talking about heavy current carrying starter cables here. Must have a look at the relay and holder in my car...
Cheers
Mike

 

[hodroyd]

I suppose it depends on what the actual current drain is across the relay. Increasing the capacity of the relay will obviously work, but if there is then an issue and the current increases for some reason, it could be the connecting cables that give up the ghost first, maybe resulting in fire. It could be the pump is pulling a great deal of power for a fraction of a second and the relay can not handle the surge, so pops, or jams, which is usually the relay has burned contacts which have stuck together. Maybe an inline capacitor on the pump would stop this possible surge from hitting the relay?

 

[mjheathcote]

I suppose it depends on what the actual current drain is across the relay. Increasing the capacity of the relay will obviously work, but if there is then an issue and the current increases for some reason, it could be the connecting cables that give up the ghost first, maybe resulting in fire. It could be the pump is pulling a great deal of power for a fraction of a second and the relay can not handle the surge, so pops, or jams, which is usually the relay has burned contacts which have stuck together. Maybe an inline capacitor on the pump would stop this possible surge from hitting the relay?

I would assume there is a fuse in the circuit somewhere to protect the wires from overload, there has to be, incase the pump fails causing a direct short.

 

[mjheathcote]

I suppose it depends on what the actual current drain is across the relay. Increasing the capacity of the relay will obviously work, but if there is then an issue and the current increases for some reason, it could be the connecting cables that give up the ghost first, maybe resulting in fire. It could be the pump is pulling a great deal of power for a fraction of a second and the relay can not handle the surge, so pops, or jams, which is usually the relay has burned contacts which have stuck together. Maybe an inline capacitor on the pump would stop this possible surge from hitting the relay?

I would assume there is a fuse in the circuit somewhere to protect the wires from overload, there has to be, incase the pump fails causing a direct short.

 

[hodroyd]

There probably is a fuse covering the circuit, but if the fuse is say a slow blow, or anti-surge as some call them, then the relay will maybe take the possible surge and eventually not be able to handle it. A bit of research on the capability of the relay normally provided, might just allow for another type of relay to be fitted, not necessarily a higher ampage. It's like a circuit breaker, you can get the same current rating, but in a range that will cut out in say 10 milliseconds, or 300 milliseconds, an obvious difference and that is only an example. Or put a capacitor in the circuit to take the surge.

Cheers
H

 

[conaero]

I can understand that, the pump only runs when required to keep the pressure in the system up. So relay failure I would image being a poor quality or too low a rated relay being overloaded, causing it to overheat and fuse the contacts together totally or partially, sticking, making the pump to run longer than necessary thus burning out the pump motor.
If this is such a critical relay, which appears it is, I am amazed that someone has not come up with a replacement kit to replace the relay and relay holder with a more 'industrial' unit, more up to the number of cycles required and current flow, and quality, to remove the problem. Can't be that difficult being an electrical swop, rather than a mechanical swop, we are not talking about heavy current carrying starter cables here. Must have a look at the relay and holder in my car...
Cheers
Mike

Relays are old tech. They do the job but really something as vital as the F1 pump should really be driven by an ECU. £10 relay or £500 ECU, suppose its almost more cost effective to replace the relay and pump at £200 (Alfa Selespeed pump)