Car won't start!!!

[Mattp]

MY07 QP Sport GT duoselect.
A while ago it started miss-shifting, dropping into neutral between 4+5th/5th&6th or failing to drop down in to something useful when approaching a roundabout for example. Clutch never slipped though...

Then it stopped going into gear when turned on... So it's now at the garage... New clutch position sensor,thrust bearing and clutch.

Now it's not starting! Gear not available on the dash, car is in neutral.

Launch says gear levers all work, door is shut, brake pedal is on.
Hydraulic circuit holds 59bar
Running the self calibration - clutch moves away from the flywheel, actuators shift through the gears, the selected gears show on the central display. Calibration completes, car drops into neutral not back into D

I can select individual gears using the Launch - pump primes, clutch moves actuators actuate... Correct gear shows on the display.

So looks like everything works from diagnostics But why is it not working when in car mode?

 

[Zep]

Hmmmm. Does your car have a tracker? Mine did this, turned out that the start enable circuit runs through the tracker, relay was knackered and signal wasn’t getting through.

 

[Zep]

Or brake pedal switch.

Actually, scratch that, then it would say depress brake pedal to start.

 

[Mattp]

I don't think it has a tracker, is there any way to easily find out?

The brake pedal switch, works - both in lighting up the brake lights, not showing the press brake on the display and it shows on and off on the diagnostics...

 

[Zep]

Brake switch sounds fine then.

I assume the “Gear unavailable” message comes up when you turn the key? And there are no codes recorded?

You would have had a tracker, it depends on whether someone removed it previously. I am sure some QPV owners will PM you and tell you where to look for the tracker.

 

[Zep]

Also check relays T20 and T19 are working correctly.

 

[Mattp]

Still problems with my car... Don't really wish to throw in the towel yet so seeking more knowledge!

This is from my mechanic...

So, the clutch operates correctly when cycling the gears through the learn process &/or selecting gears individually using launch. Solenoid energises correctly & works correctly.
When you sit in car & switch ignition on &/or try to select gears there is no voltage to the solenoid ie no signal to open clutch & subsequently no clutch movement & therefore no signal to start & a ‘no gears available’ message on the dash panel.

We have two error codes that are fairly persistent...
P1781 pump control relay stuck
P1778 low pump pressure

Which relays and which system has low pressure?
The F1 pump is working as per the troubleshooting guide in the advanced electronics and F1 system manual. The 50A relay in the boot is newish and swapped for a brand new one, but still has the same error.

 

[Oneball]

I’ve no experience of the system but what about the gear lever being an issue? It seems to work with launch but not the lever.

 

[Zep]

Can you read the pressure on the launch? Is it actually low?

 

[Mattp]

According to the Launch, The paddles and forward/reverse levers all operate properly.

Pressure shown on the launch is upto 50something bar and holds for about 10 mins before dropping evenly to 39bar and cycling the pump

 

[spkennyuk]

Still problems with my car... Don't really wish to throw in the towel yet so seeking more knowledge!

This is from my mechanic...

So, the clutch operates correctly when cycling the gears through the learn process &/or selecting gears individually using launch. Solenoid energises correctly & works correctly.
When you sit in car & switch ignition on &/or try to select gears there is no voltage to the solenoid ie no signal to open clutch & subsequently no clutch movement & therefore no signal to start & a ‘no gears available’ message on the dash panel.

We have two error codes that are fairly persistent...
P1781 pump control relay stuck
P1778 low pump pressure

Which relays and which system has low pressure?
The F1 pump is working as per the troubleshooting guide in the advanced electronics and F1 system manual. The 50A relay in the boot is newish and swapped for a brand new one, but still has the same error.

Just a thought. As far as im aware you can also get code P1781 if the pump is receiving a continous signal to prime.

The second code you have is low pump pressure although diagnostics suggest the pressure in the system is all ok and leak rate is within spec.

That suggests to me that either the pressure switch is faulty or the issue may be in the TCU itself.

There is another relay in the TCU but if that goes faulty then you should see error code P1735.

From what your describing the system will only function at present when the command codes are being sent from the launch system / diagnostics tool.

As soon as the TCU has to function on its own it is seeing an error and refusing to operate.

The TCU lives above the battery in the boot. I would be tempted to disconnect the battery and TCU. Check it for water ingress or visable damage. Reconnect everything and see if the issue is still there.

One other thing springs to mind that you could try. Open the car and drop the window then close the door. Open the boot and disconnect the battery. Leave the car alone for 15 minutes.

The aim of this is to have minimal pressure in the f1 system. ie below 40 bar when the pump would normally prime again.

Dont connect the battery at this stage. Open the door and get in and close the door. Get a mate / mechanic to switch the battery on while your in the car with the doors closed. The pump shouldnt prime at this point.

Put the key in and attempt to start the car. There should be a delay of 5 seconds or so as the tcu gathers data from the other sensors and attempts to prime the pump. The tcu wont have received the usual input from opening the door but it should still prime from the key signal.

If the pump doesnt prime using the above method then it suggests to me there is an issue with the tcu itself as other than when you open the door it isnt sending the signal to prime the pump.

I think your probably going to need the sd2/sd3 on this occasion to be able to see exactly what signals the tcu is or isnt sending.

If the pump does prime when you connect the battery with you sat in the car then have a coffee and wait 15 mins for the pressure to drop before you try and start the car. You need the pressure in the system to be below 40 bar to test the theory.

Hopefully somebody will be along with far more knowledge than me to check the theory.

 

[Mattp]

Just a thought. As far as im aware you can also get code P1781 if the pump is receiving a continous signal to prime.

The second code you have is low pump pressure although diagnostics suggest the pressure in the system is all ok and leak rate is within spec.

That suggests to me that either the pressure switch is faulty or the issue may be in the TCU itself.

There is another relay in the TCU but if that goes faulty then you should see error code P1735.

From what your describing the system will only function at present when the command codes are being sent from the launch system / diagnostics tool.

As soon as the TCU has to function on its own it is seeing an error and refusing to operate.

The TCU lives above the battery in the boot. I would be tempted to disconnect the battery and TCU. Check it for water ingress or visable damage. Reconnect everything and see if the issue is still there.

One other thing springs to mind that you could try. Open the car and drop the window then close the door. Open the boot and disconnect the battery. Leave the car alone for 15 minutes.

The aim of this is to have minimal pressure in the f1 system. ie below 40 bar when the pump would normally prime again.

Dont connect the battery at this stage. Open the door and get in and close the door. Get a mate / mechanic to switch the battery on while your in the car with the doors closed. The pump shouldnt prime at this point.

Put the key in and attempt to start the car. There should be a delay of 5 seconds or so as the tcu gathers data from the other sensors and attempts to prime the pump. The tcu wont have received the usual input from opening the door but it should still prime from the key signal.

If the pump doesnt prime using the above method then it suggests to me there is an issue with the tcu itself as other than when you open the door it isnt sending the signal to prime the pump.

I think your probably going to need the sd2/sd3 on this occasion to be able to see exactly what signals the tcu is or isnt sending.

If the pump does prime when you connect the battery with you sat in the car then have a coffee and wait 15 mins for the pressure to drop before you try and start the car. You need the pressure in the system to be below 40 bar to test the theory.

Hopefully somebody will be along with far more knowledge than me to check the theory.

Thanks Spkenny, we tried this and the pump primed on the key turn, so TCU is able to control the pump...
Are there any more ideas anyone can throw at this? I'm sinking quite deep into this money pit, would be satisfying to get the car to start without having to have it transported to a specialist and have them start from scratch...

 

[BennyD]

Italian character; give it a kick, shout at it and tell it Mussolini's a ****. That usually works with mine.

 

[Oneball]

Are all the doors showing closed and the bonnet (not sure if it senses that but worth a try)?

 

[BennyD]

I don't think it has a tracker, is there any way to easily find out.

Yes, when it's working again leave it in Liverpool with the doors unlocked.

 

[Scaf]

Yes, when it's working again leave it in Liverpool with the doors unlocked.

You don’t actually have to leave it unlocked in Liverpool, just leaving it unattended will be enough

 

[Gazcw]

You don’t actually have to leave it unlocked in Liverpool, just leaving it unattended will be enough

I left a company car unlocked all night near the Liver building. It was still there in the morning. When I told the guys at the local office they said, well what do you expect it is a fckin Vectra!

 

[alfatwo]

Its either no fuel or no spark, just like it was 50 years ago!

Dave

 

[midlifecrisis]

I left a company car unlocked all night near the Liver building. It was still there in the morning. When I told the guys at the local office they said, well what do you expect it is a fckin Vectra!

Scousers with taste? Who'd have thought it?

As Dave says, does the engine turn? I don't we've established that yet.

 

[spkennyuk]

Thanks Spkenny, we tried this and the pump primed on the key turn, so TCU is able to control the pump...
Are there any more ideas anyone can throw at this? I'm sinking quite deep into this money pit, would be satisfying to get the car to start without having to have it transported to a specialist and have them start from scratch...

Couple of other thoughts.

The f1 pump and accumulator appear to be working fine and holding the pressure within specs. The electric motor that drives the pump may be weak and running too long. Might be worth disconnecting the motor from the pump and doing a visual inspection. 2 screws hold it in place. Circular hole in the middle of the square block has a small round keyway piece that can fall out. Its a connecting piece between the electric motor spindel and the pump spindle. Its more than likely got a load of old grease in there that will hold it in place. But keep an eye out for it dropping out. Looks like a large scre head with a hole/slot in the middle of it.

You could try opening the door with the motor detached from the pump and see if the spindle is running smoothly without unusual noises.

The electric motor is the same one i think as the alfa selespeed so not too expensive to replace.

Pressure switch could still be faulty which again there may be an alfa alternative. To keep the costs down if you need to replace

Lastly you said the clutch has been changed. Has it ever started since the clutch change ?

If it hasnt started since has it been set up on the tcu correctly ? If the clutch measurement from new hasnt been reset and pis settings set then that could be the cause.

Could also be worth pulling the relay and checking its working with a 12v battery also check the relay socket isnt damaged / burned.

Im assuming the battery is fully charged

Im pretty much out of ideas after that as everything else seems to be operating as normal.