GranSport clutch PIS

FelixV

Junior Member
Messages
201
Hi all,

As my car is being serviced in the coming week, I thought I would ask what the best value for the clutch PIS point is. We were thinking in the range of 3.8 - 4.5 but apparently these are amongst the most agressive levels of adjustment. If anybody has knowledge of this topic or have had good experiences, please share. All advice is much appreciated :).

With thanks,
Felix
 

adam01

Member
Messages
1,079
Hi all,

As my car is being serviced in the coming week, I thought I would ask what the best value for the clutch PIS point is. We were thinking in the range of 3.8 - 4.5 but apparently these are amongst the most agressive levels of adjustment. If anybody has knowledge of this topic or have had good experiences, please share. All advice is much appreciated :).

With thanks,
Felix

who in Melb. recommended those settings ?

Never heard of below 4.2 and at that level the owner said too aggressive - i'm running 4.7 and its fine, (remembering factory settings were 5.1)
 

FelixV

Junior Member
Messages
201
I did hear somewhere (cannot exactly recall, maybe on the U.S forum) that it has been as low as 3.8, although that really does seem to be pushing it. If it was originally set at 5.1, would 4.5-7 be a better choice, following your comment?
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,877
That sounds might *mighty* low.

I did mine with the fine Voicey by him adjusting it down and us going for a blast, then him taking it down another notch until I found it was too sharp.

We ended up with 4.7 (Same as 2b1ask1) and I'd be surprised if you wanted it much more aggressive. It suits me, and my style perfectly. Was a bit jump at cold manuevering but taking it out of sport fixed that.

I'd suggest you try to do the same thing (that is try it at a variety of settings). My clutch has about 17k miles on it now.

C
 

CraigWaterman11

Sponsor
Messages
762
Too be honest Felix I think that PIS can vary from car to car. It shouldn't be set just by a number for instance 4.3. I also don't believe you will get it down to 3.8 at least I've never seen that and I'm a member on the U.S. forum. If you want your car to perform the absolute dead level best with the most aggressive PIS to save on clutch wear, ask your Tech to use the Gear box RPM's to lower it.

Make sure the car has been taken out on a nice long drive. Maybe about 30-45 min. (I will tell you why in a second). Then lower your PIS to about 4.5 mm first. Check the Gear box RPM's to see if you are picking up any friction disc drag from the clutch on the flywheel. These F1 cars in neutral still hold the clutch open. It's not like a normal 3 pedal in that it releases the clutch after you switch to neutral.

If you are not getting any drag lower it to 4.4, then to 4.3 ect. Chances are with your Gran Sport you will already have fly wheel drag at 4.5 mm. If you do, open it back up by .10mm until you don't. Once you register 0 RPMs on the Gear box rpm sensor. Rev the car to 2000, check and see if it's still bumping the flywheel. If it is you can open it by one more .10mm or if you are like me to push it to the absolute closest setting I will start doing .02 or .03 etc. Finally, I will tach the car up to about 5000 briefly to see if when it spins out it touches.


These steps are important because you can glaze your friction discs by allowing you clutch to drag off the flywheel. It's why Ferrari/Maserati had recommended lowest settings. I don't necessarily agree with them as my Spyder is set down to 4.2 or 4.3 now and as soon as I touch my gas pedal the car is moving there's almost no slipping on take off. But I've set up quite a few cars recently and noticed that almost none of them have the exact same KISS point. My GS is set down to 4.6.

Now for why you have to make sure those friction discs are properly warm.

After I set up the Spyder and I thought the disc were sufficiently warm, I took a good 30-45 min drive to my in-laws. On the way back home I was on the highway and putting the car in neutral then back into gear checking a few things out. The car was struggling going back into gear. It would only do it after I continued hitting the up shift about 3 times. I plugged it in and checked the gear box rpms, and sure enough it was dragging off the flywheel not letting it get into gear on the first attempt. Not good after installing a brand new clutch in the car! All is well now of course.

Anyway so if you want to get the absolute best KISS point tell him to follow this method for your car in the future. If you talk to Aldous Voice much, or you run across any of his threads he's commenting in, you can thank him for the information. I collaborate with him on F1 issues and he's not only a gentleman, he's a crack shot with these cars. I'm pretty certain, and I know this is going to sound a bit proud but I will risk it in order to give credit where it's due. I'm pretty certain I'm one of the best F1 techs in my area because of him. Funny thing is, I've never met him in person! Additionally this is the method Chris is describing to you.
 

Mr.Cambio

Member
Messages
7,096
4.1 is the value i have on mine, and my engineer refuses to bring It lower.. That means that lower values will affect the bite and the flywheel/bearing.
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,645
I am running 4.5

Basically, if the car creeps at idle on flat ground then you are set to low and your wearing the clutch out.

As soon as I touch the gas on mine, it moves, idle is about 750rpm from memory and I am on the move at 1,000rpm.

Clutch was set up live (with the SD connected and me driving it) by Mike Roberts and Voicey also looked at it and set it was set up really well.
 

outrun

Member
Messages
5,017
I think mine was 4.6 from memory. Also set up after on the move trial and error. Didn't creep forward an still required a little gas to get moving but changed gear faster and smoother when underway which is what I wanted for B roads!
 

FelixV

Junior Member
Messages
201
I am not an expert on this topic so I thank you all for the advice. It is about a 30-45 minute drive to the dealer but I don't think they will carry any work out on the car until Monday. I would also think that the service techs would know if something wrong was happening, ie. creeping forward without any throttle input. I think we will tell the techs to go with 4.5 and if that doesn't work out then I may just leave it with them to sought correctly.
 

voicey

Member
Messages
660
I've just got back from Europe so am scanning threads on all the forums I frequent. Basically, what Craig wrote is spot on - there is no "best" setting for the PIS as every car is different.

If anyone wants me to check/adjust their PIS I'd be happy to do it FOC if you can get the car to me in SE3.
 

Mr.Cambio

Member
Messages
7,096
Last week i had a talk with FD regarding the DBW. They informed me that you must first bypass the DBW, then set the PIS. This way the SD tester will stricly adjust the PIS, and then by turning on the DBW, you can have the maximum effect.
Also, i read that Benny had a custom gearbox software. It would be nice to have a review of his experience and personally i would be interested in it.
Hope this helps.
 

Mr.Cambio

Member
Messages
7,096
Too be honest Felix I think that PIS can vary from car to car. It shouldn't be set just by a number for instance 4.3. I also don't believe you will get it down to 3.8 at least I've never seen that and I'm a member on the U.S. forum. If you want your car to perform the absolute dead level best with the most aggressive PIS to save on clutch wear, ask your Tech to use the Gear box RPM's to lower it.

Make sure the car has been taken out on a nice long drive. Maybe about 30-45 min. (I will tell you why in a second). Then lower your PIS to about 4.5 mm first. Check the Gear box RPM's to see if you are picking up any friction disc drag from the clutch on the flywheel. These F1 cars in neutral still hold the clutch open. It's not like a normal 3 pedal in that it releases the clutch after you switch to neutral.

If you are not getting any drag lower it to 4.4, then to 4.3 ect. Chances are with your Gran Sport you will already have fly wheel drag at 4.5 mm. If you do, open it back up by .10mm until you don't. Once you register 0 RPMs on the Gear box rpm sensor. Rev the car to 2000, check and see if it's still bumping the flywheel. If it is you can open it by one more .10mm or if you are like me to push it to the absolute closest setting I will start doing .02 or .03 etc. Finally, I will tach the car up to about 5000 briefly to see if when it spins out it touches.


These steps are important because you can glaze your friction discs by allowing you clutch to drag off the flywheel. It's why Ferrari/Maserati had recommended lowest settings. I don't necessarily agree with them as my Spyder is set down to 4.2 or 4.3 now and as soon as I touch my gas pedal the car is moving there's almost no slipping on take off. But I've set up quite a few cars recently and noticed that almost none of them have the exact same KISS point. My GS is set down to 4.6.

Now for why you have to make sure those friction discs are properly warm.

After I set up the Spyder and I thought the disc were sufficiently warm, I took a good 30-45 min drive to my in-laws. On the way back home I was on the highway and putting the car in neutral then back into gear checking a few things out. The car was struggling going back into gear. It would only do it after I continued hitting the up shift about 3 times. I plugged it in and checked the gear box rpms, and sure enough it was dragging off the flywheel not letting it get into gear on the first attempt. Not good after installing a brand new clutch in the car! All is well now of course.

Anyway so if you want to get the absolute best KISS point tell him to follow this method for your car in the future. If you talk to Aldous Voice much, or you run across any of his threads he's commenting in, you can thank him for the information. I collaborate with him on F1 issues and he's not only a gentleman, he's a crack shot with these cars. I'm pretty certain, and I know this is going to sound a bit proud but I will risk it in order to give credit where it's due. I'm pretty certain I'm one of the best F1 techs in my area because of him. Funny thing is, I've never met him in person! Additionally this is the method Chris is describing to you.

last night i realised that when having gear 1st/R the my car is very slightly moving. I believe that this is a sign that clutch is engaged all the time. My quesion, is this an evidence that my clutch will go sooner than normal? For your information, i car is always driven on countryside and highway, so no start/stop/traffic use.

Thoughts are welcome.
 

CraigWaterman11

Sponsor
Messages
762
last night i realised that when having gear 1st/R the my car is very slightly moving. I believe that this is a sign that clutch is engaged all the time. My quesion, is this an evidence that my clutch will go sooner than normal? For your information, i car is always driven on countryside and highway, so no start/stop/traffic use.

Thoughts are welcome.

Here's the reason why I particularly do not like the car barely moving method of setting up the KISS point. I didn't say anything before only because I feel that people are entitled to do what works best for them with their cars whether I agree with it or not.

Open your car door and push your vehicle forward in neutral. That initial push that you do to move the car forward is what is being overcome by the clutch dragging on the flywheel/pressure plate to move the car forward by setting the PIS this way. So we have to ask ourselves exactly how much contact is the friction disc making with each mating service before the car actually moves? How much does it slip in setting up the PIS to make the car noticeably move forward? We can somewhat understand this because every F1 car on take off slips when you're taking off from a dead stop to make it move.

However, when you are in neutral watching for the gear box RPMs to set the PIS there isn't any real weight you are overcoming besides the center shaft of the bell housing, and the torque tube shaft. Both you can spin by a slight twist with one hand. Additionally, that is live data that you are watching. Moreover, you are checking that live data for spin out with the various revs described above. Even when I was getting the shift problems in the Spyder because the clutch wasn't adequately warm (described above in another posting) the car was not moving on level ground. The drag in neutral was roughly jumping from 100-200 gear box rpms but with the car in drive that wasn't enough to overcome the initial dead stop weight. This would lead this common man to believe I was just sitting there wearing the friction discs without the enjoyment of driving the car as it ran sitting in gear.

One more point to consider. PIS/Kiss point isn't affected by the wear of your clutch. What I mean is, yes of course as the clutch ends it's life it slips more but this isn't from KISS point it's from deterioration of friction discs material. When you have a good clutch have you noticed you don't have to continuously lower your KISS point through the life of the clutch? Once you set it up, technically it stays this way through it's life. So if you have it set up where it's dragging at the beginning of it's life it will drag all the way through. Actually it might just glaze the clutch enough where the clutch performance is diminished so you don't enjoy all it's knee jerk shifts as you should. It's really hard for me to notice it until I switch cars for a day. For instance, when I go from the GS to the Spyder it's like night and day. The Spyder is killer in shifts. But you get used to it really quick and don't notice the performance until you jump into another car. Then for the moment you're like, what just happened? So because you are familiar with that car and drive it all the time I bet most wouldn't even notice their clutches don't function optimally.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to be winded. This is of course my opinion. To answer your question yes I definitely feel if your Kiss point is set up wrong you will have a shorter life expectancy in that clutch.
 

Mr.Cambio

Member
Messages
7,096
Thanks. Matt stated above that the engine rpm on idle is 750. Mine is 1000. If idle is adjusted lower, may the changes become harder?
 

MAF260

Member
Messages
7,662
I've had some issues with mine recently, culminating in an embarrassing display at the gates of Brooklands this morning. As the clutch engaged in 1st the revs dropped a little and the car would stall. This happened about 8-10 times today before I finally got the car moving off without stalling. The stench of burnt clutch was overwhelming. A call to Voicey saw him come to my house later today for a check and adjustment. The PIS was last set at 4.7, but had somehow adjusted itself down to 4.2 which is clearly too aggressive for my car. All reset, checked thoroughly and now working as it should. Big thanks again to Voicey for coming over and sorting it for me.
 

CraigWaterman11

Sponsor
Messages
762
Thanks. Matt stated above that the engine rpm on idle is 750. Mine is 1000. If idle is adjusted lower, may the changes become harder?

Mine also runs about 750 rpms. Does yours normally run this high even after the vehicle is at operating temperature?