Joining the electric car club

Wack61

Member
Messages
8,799
For most people buying cars with their post tax income EVs don't really make sense because who does the mileage to make any significant savings

You'd need to be spending £100 a week on fuel to make up for the catastrophic depreciation which is at the level only normally seen on high end cars

The retail prices on used EVs don't seem to be falling at the same rate as trade offers so the dealers are still trying to ride the EV wave that sank about two years ago

I saw today non franchised dealers are starting to stock new taycans at well under list, Porsche must be offloading them at significant discounts
 

safrane

Member
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16,894
I think that’s good going, with superb mpg, all whilst driving a good quality, comfortable and reliable modern car. Goes to show it was a good choice when you got it.
Obviously not a like-for-like comparison with the E-Tron, as it’s comparing a used car to a new one. And we all know that used cars are cheaper up front than new ones. But useful figures none the less and shows a more normal/typical ownership.

Interestingly though, it looks as though the Audi cost me less than half the Volvo, at (approx) £300 a month in total versus (approx) £700. So I have to say a big thank you to Rishi Sunak from his days as the Chancellor.

Thinking of the wider fleet, and purely for our collective amusement, how is the cost-per-mile figure looking like for your Maserati over the last three years!? (I suspect it may be even worse than some of my cars!).
Let's skip the Masers...Still they are cheaper than going to football every weekend.
 

safrane

Member
Messages
16,894
I suppose the argument for buying new is that you the very latest tech, safety features, comforts, and engineering enhancements. You also get a proper warranty and no concerns about the vehicles past ownership.

And there are, from time to time, some cracking deals. I bought my Volvo V90 estate a little over 5 years ago, brand new, and got an additional £5k off just for taking the Volvo 0% finance deal. I had intended to pay cash, but obviously didn’t when I realised that would cost me £5k more.

It‘s now done about 35k miles and, after a good clean, still looks virtually new. The plan is to keep it another few years yet, as it’s been super reliable, comfy, practical and economical. It simply ticks all the boxes you’d expect it to.

Shame Volvo no longer offer an estate car in the U.K., but I suppose it’s a sign of the times.
Just on the point of new...I have a C43 AMG Estate loand to me at the moment. Just driven it to Cumbria and back. Christ what a pile of ****. Gearbox is more jerky than a Caribbean BBQ, it had more rattles than our 20 year old Mini and apart from screens everywhere it was less well equipped than the XC90. It had less than 25 miles on it on Friday and I wish I had taken my own car.
 

outrun

Member
Messages
5,017
I’m keen to hear this as I reckon it’ll blow the savings on fuel and servicing completely out of the water.
This. In spades.

Here is the issue - the back, slapping political pledge to meet green targets led to the incentives for buyers of new EVs (as in Ewan's case). So a modest amount of early adopters found themselves in the ideal situation to take advantage - 100% deduction from corporation tax, 0% PIK (now risen to 2%), off street parking to allow home/office charging, a good tariff from pre-Ukraine/Russia conflict and probably access to an ICE vehicle to take away range anxiety.

Now the sales start to increase and our politicians can report great uptake of EVs and so on. Yah, we are saving the planet, let's fly in by private jet to a summit to congratulate ourselves.

BUT.....they next wave of buyers can't afford the increased price of an EV, plus there are no tax advantages in doing so. Add to that the issue that in some towns and cities, over 70% of people live in apartments and have no private off-street parking and now you hit an issue. That issue is that the 2nd wave don't want, can't afford and have no real incentive to buy an EV. So the 2nd hand market is small, supply outstrips demand and depreciation is running riot. See the Taycan for details.

There is no incentives from HMRC on anything except pure EV, that's a mistake too and out of line with most other EU countries. In reality, many journies are short and so plug-in hybrids that offer 30-40miles on EV, then resort to petrol are ideal for many and take away the issues of range anxiety, having an EV as an only car, expensive charging (there is less battery to charge) and so on. For example, my sister who is in Berlin, has a 530e touring and received tax incentives and discounts for buying it. She lives in an apartment with no charging (yet) but can charge on-street most of the time. Her car does around 40km pure electric then resorts to petrol but while using the petrol, it self-charges so if she drives from Berlin to Hamburg, she is EV until out of Berlin, petrol on the autobahn and then back to EV when she arrives in Hamburg. All very sensible.

Now add in LEZ and ULEZ schemes for major cities (coming soon to every town near you) and what happens is that you force the those that live in the zones to change car or suck up the fines. That actually hurts those that really can't afford an EV the most. It's a very poor election strategy. The underpaid nurse, teacher or janitor that use an older diesel to get to work are now being hammered, and they really can't afford to be.

Let's move to the EVs themselves. In the UK (and EU in general) we have a great car making tradition and many jobs supported by the automotive market. But, we have forced traditional manufacturers to make EVs and they are unable to catch Tesla on one hand, and China on the other. So the Chinese brands are making lower cost EVs and shipping them in, killing the EU automotive market. And they are doing this while ignoring any Co2 targets and laughing while the West strangles itself to offset the increase that China alone is creating, just to appease the back slapping that the EU and others have created for themselves. Additionally, Tesla is shipping in their technologically far more advanced vehicles and then dropping prices willy-nilly, forcing 2nd hand dealers to refuse to trade in EVs because with one sweep of Elon's hand, their entire stock could be in negative equity and they can't afford to risk that. Tesla are so far ahead of the big, traditional makers, that those guys have no real chance of catching up and remaining profitable at the same time. See Ford, GM etc for details.

Additionally, let's add in insurance which has increased for many (I appreciate, not for all). Why? That's because no bodyshop wants to repair a battery pack and so cars are being written off for less damage than before, leading to larger pay-outs and hence, higher insurance.

Even with all that considered, I have been looking at a small EV for local journies. We could use one for the school runs, trip to Sainsbury's and so on. I whittled it down to the Peugeot 308-e. Now, a new one is £35k or so (depending on spec) and I can offset it through my business. But a 2 year old one with 5k miles on it is £16k. So I will be "saving" 19k on tax but having a book asset that is dropping like a stone. So I have looked at getting a 2 year old one on a 3 or 4 year finance deal through my business.. Corporation tax will reduce, albeit by not as much and spread over a few years. PIK remains at 2% and I can re-charge some home charging costs back which reduces CT further etc. And I have an asset on the books etc etc.

Really, we will need to see HMRC and the Chancellor introduce incentives on 2nd hand EVs and Plug-ins before there is any transition past the early-adopters and into the masses.

But regardless, there is no way we would ever give up and ICE vehicle as we do regular trips of 500 miles and I'm not waiting around for charging. Forget it.

Regardless of the above, I am all for change. I believe that we need to be responsible for our own impact and that we must be aware and try to manage that impact. However, forcing change without sensible consideration is not intelligent and I fear that we are actually setting ourselves back while the science struggles to catch up with the promises of politicians.

If you've read this far, well done! Over and out.
 

philw696

Member
Messages
25,547
Great write up @outrun
I'm all for change if the science is right but when the Politicians are constantly taking the Pîss flying around in Helicopters and Jets and then straight into Limousines to the top Hotels I'm not going away from my personal choice of vehicles which are maintained correctly and always get clean sheet MOT tests.
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,342
Great write up @outrun
I'm all for change if the science is right but when the Politicians are constantly taking the Pîss flying around in Helicopters and Jets and then straight into Limousines to the top Hotels I'm not going away from my personal choice of vehicles which are maintained correctly and always get clean sheet MOT tests.
One other thing I’ve thought about of late on top of the private jets, that adds to the emissions is the billions of pounds worth of ammunition we are manufacturing and selling, loaning and gifting to IDF and Ukraine. How many CO2’s in a missile? Bet it’s more than my car emits over a very long time.
 

Ewan

Member
Messages
6,825
Agreed, Athol.
One minor point. There are some Govn incentives on hybrids. For example, on a car that does 70 miles (minimum) on electricity only, the BIK is 5%. The only car I know that does this is the Range Rover P460e, which is why the waiting list on that particular model is so long compared with the rest of the range.
From memory, I think BIK is 7% if the car does 40 miles. But worth looking it up.

Your idea of the nearly new, low mileage, but well depreciated EV as a runabout seems sensible to me.
 

Alex72

Member
Messages
116
Maserati owners worried about depreciation :eek::p

I was an EV cynic, until I got one. One thing that doesn’t get mentioned often enough, the good ones are really really good to drive. They don’t feel heavy even if they are, they corner well because of the low centre of gravity, and are super smooth and quiet.

I like both my cars, even though they are completely different.
 
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Felonious Crud

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
21,218
For most people buying cars with their post tax income EVs don't really make sense because who does the mileage to make any significant savings

You'd need to be spending £100 a week on fuel to make up for the catastrophic depreciation which is at the level only normally seen on high end cars

The retail prices on used EVs don't seem to be falling at the same rate as trade offers so the dealers are still trying to ride the EV wave that sank about two years ago

I saw today non franchised dealers are starting to stock new taycans at well under list, Porsche must be offloading them at significant discounts
Porsche has many, many, unsold Taycans kicking around.
 

Ewan

Member
Messages
6,825
I’ve not followed the Taycan market as it’s not the right car for what we need an EV to do. So I just had a look on AT. There are lots for sale and the earliest cars are now nearly 4 years old, and are priced in the mid fifties. These were around £90k new. So the depreciation is not so different to lots of other cars of that value (think big Merc, BMW, Maserati QP etc). But it certainly has depreciated more than an equivalent £90k 911 from that year. Exactly as is the case with the 911, it’s the Turbo-S versions of both cars that have lost the most (fairly obviously, as they start from the highest point).

I‘ve just noticed that a 911 (991) Turbo-S can be had for around £75k. That’s a lot of weapon for the money. Tempting.
 

Alex72

Member
Messages
116
You're young and can still be turned from the dark side; it may take time, but a Maserati will eventually prove to be your saviour.

Where there's a Trident there's hope.

I’m not young, and I already own a Maserati.

Pretty much the only people I know that have a severe dislike to them, are those that have never owned one. I was a huge cynic, until I got one.
 

urquattrogus

Member
Messages
858
The crazy depreciation of electric cars has made me consider one for the first time. £30k for a high spec car under 3 years old such as a polestar 2 or a Jag I Pace for a family car for mostly local journeys is tempting to consider. Can’t say that the thought of one being out of warranty and going wrong doesn’t give me the willies though, but if it was good value then to some degree i would take the risk, or try and get extended cover at least.
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,342
I’m not young, and I already own a Maserati.

Pretty much the only people I know that have a severe dislike to them, are those that have never owned one. I was a huge cynic, until I got one.
I don’t doubt they’re nice to drive, it’s the greenwashing agenda and depreciation that make me incredibly cynical about them. That’s aside from range anxiety and other issues.
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,342
The crazy depreciation of electric cars has made me consider one for the first time. £30k for a high spec car under 3 years old such as a polestar 2 or a Jag I Pace for a family car for mostly local journeys is tempting to consider. Can’t say that the thought of one being out of warranty and going wrong doesn’t give me the willies though, but if it was good value then to some degree i would take the risk, or try and get extended cover at least.
But if they’re continuing to depreciate at that rate it’s still not that cheap is it? £30k buys a lovely depreciation free car if you’re canny enough.
 

outrun

Member
Messages
5,017
But if they’re continuing to depreciate at that rate it’s still not that cheap is it? £30k buys a lovely depreciation free car if you’re canny enough.

So true. And with the EV, they will drop more and more as they close in on their useful battery lifespans (as little as 8 years for some, more for others) until the price to
replace the battery waaaaayyyyy outweighs the value of the car and then we have a scrap lithium issue on a massive scale. I can't imagine that just filing them on top of each
other in a scrap yard is intelligent. Nor, can you crush them into a cube. So they will be stripped of useful parts and some clever companies will be given the valuable metals for free, or even paid to take them.

Knowing the lack of foresight being ably demonstrated by many goverments, including our own, we will probably pay China to take them back, recycle them (using some spurious safety methods that we will sweep under the carpet) and then re-sell them back to us again once renewed.
 

philw696

Member
Messages
25,547
So true. And with the EV, they will drop more and more as they close in on their useful battery lifespans (as little as 8 years for some, more for others) until the price to
replace the battery waaaaayyyyy outweighs the value of the car and then we have a scrap lithium issue on a massive scale. I can't imagine that just filing them on top of each
other in a scrap yard is intelligent. Nor, can you crush them into a cube. So they will be stripped of useful parts and some clever companies will be given the valuable metals for free, or even paid to take them.

Knowing the lack of foresight being ably demonstrated by many goverments, including our own, we will probably pay China to take them back, recycle them (using some spurious safety methods that we will sweep under the carpet) and then re-sell them back to us again once renewed.
Absolutely spot on.
For me that's why I just don't want to be involved with this bit of Automotive History.