Joining the electric car club

[Alex72]

But if they’re continuing to depreciate at that rate it’s still not that cheap is it? £30k buys a lovely depreciation free car if you’re canny enough.

I don’t doubt they’re nice to drive, it’s the greenwashing agenda and depreciation that make me incredibly cynical about them. That’s aside from range anxiety and other issues.

In my mind the greenwashing is irrelevant. I’m just viewing them as a car, all of them are poor for the planet. What politicians and manufacturers say about them is irrelevant to me, it’s just noise that doesn’t impact my life.

Although as I understand it, the emissions payback after manufacturing is quicker than some would like to admit. Wasn’t part of my buying decision, so haven’t validated that.

And depreciation would never go in a straight line plummet to zero, it’s doesn’t for anything else. So for secondhand cars, that shouldn’t be a real worry. In the first few years, they just depreciate like a Maserati, so we should all know how that feels.

In fact most of us are driving round in Maseratis we bought because they depreciated so much! Maybe a 2 car drive of secondhand cars that depreciated quickly isn’t a bad idea?

 

[Ewan]

As far as I can see, very few people on this forum buy new cars of the value of a Maserati or top-end EV. Most on here are in the buying -second-hand-to-save-on-depreciation camp. It allows us all to drive cars we otherwise might not. Especially most of the ones I buy, as they’ve been out of production for typically 20 years or more!

 

[safrane]

I see Harry has tested the new base Lotus EV.

Equivalent to just less than 14mpg if charged out and about, or 35mpg if charged at home. Its not very efficient.

Car looks nice but the rear is a no-no for me due to Coupe styling which is no good for carrying dogs.

 

[Motorsport3]

Regardless of personal preference (or capacity) to buy new or used, there is an argument to be made whether the EV as a product is there or not quite there yet.

I find Harry Metcalfe’s latest video on the electric Lotus suv is spot on in that regard. In particular his quotes whereby he is mapping ev consumption to MPG equivalent is eye watering. If anything the current crop looks to me destined to deprecate as fast as last years laptop.

 

[Phil H]

I’m not young, and I already own a Maserati.

Pretty much the only people I know that have a severe dislike to them, are those that have never owned one. I was a huge cynic, until I got one.

I don't decry EV's for what they are, I decry the EV industry and its protagonists for a massive con. It's rather ironic that one of the world's greatest producers of EV's (China) is also the world's greatest producer of coal - and that's just for starters!

 

[safrane]

Just reflected that during all the previous fuel crisis people went to smaller more efficient cars... where as now they just get bigger and heavier and have moved to the fuel that keeps going up in price.

 

[outrun]

Agreed, Athol.
One minor point. There are some Govn incentives on hybrids. For example, on a car that does 70 miles (minimum) on electricity only, the BIK is 5%. The only car I know that does this is the Range Rover P460e, which is why the waiting list on that particular model is so long compared with the rest of the range.
From memory, I think BIK is 7% if the car does 40 miles. But worth looking it up.

Your idea of the nearly new, low mileage, but well depreciated EV as a runabout seems sensible to me.

You are right, and a good point. We looked at this option and it's just not really worth it. My point was that given the range if 40miles or so of most plug-ins, these should really be treated the same at EVs. That's how are EU neighbours are doing it as of course, most journies are short and the range is Ok for most daily use.

While the EVs come off lease and depriciate so hard, the finance companies are giving them very GFVs, making them too much to buy 2nd hand for most families. Changing the tax treatment of them would really help.

I am lucky, I can buy a new EV through my business, I can lease one through the business or I can buy 2nd hand and still get some benefit. But I am in the 5%, not the 95%. And that's the issue.

 

[Ewan]

You are right, and a good point. We looked at this option and it's just not really worth it. My point was that given the range if 40miles or so of most plug-ins, these should really be treated the same at EVs. That's how are EU neighbours are doing it as of course, most journies are short and the range is Ok for most daily use.

While the EVs come off lease and depriciate so hard, the finance companies are giving them very GFVs, making them too much to buy 2nd hand for most families. Changing the tax treatment of them would really help.

I am lucky, I can buy a new EV through my business, I can lease one through the business or I can buy 2nd hand and still get some benefit. But I am in the 5%, not the 95%. And that's the issue.

Indeed. And perhaps the U.K. should follow the EU model. But right now, we have to play by the rules of the game as they stand. Which basically means that if you can run a car through your company, it may as well be a really nice EV. You can run a brand new £100k EV, with all the luxury and speed that provides, for less than privately owning a very average 10 year old ICE vehicle. Of course, not everyone is in the position to do this, but that doesn’t mean that those that are, shouldn’t. (If they want to.)

 

[outrun]

Indeed. And perhaps the U.K. should follow the EU model. But right now, we have to play by the rules of the game as they stand. Which basically means that if you can run a car through your company, it may as well be a really nice EV. You can run a brand new £100k EV, with all the luxury and speed that provides, for less than privately owning a very average 10 year old ICE vehicle. Of course, not everyone is in the position to do this, but that doesn’t mean that those that are, shouldn’t. (If they want to.)

Agreed, the point is that those that can, now have (in the main) and as the incentives don't pass down the line, the 2nd wave don't want them.

 

[gb-gta]

Tax breaks can’t last forever. None of the plans make sense, in less than 3 weeks 22% of each manufactures cars sold must be EV to avoid massive fines, ramping up to 80% by 2030. When such a small percentage of the population can actually afford an EV without massive tax breaks the only conclusion to be drawn is that basically the majority of the population are being deliberately excluded from buying a new car over the next 6 or 7 years. But I guess this aligns with the net zero lunatics who appear to control the worlds governments who openly state private car ownership should be eradicated…..

You may say in the next few years there will be loads of cheap second hand EV’s for the ‘masses’. But who will want one of those with potential 5 figure repair bills hanging over them along with insane insurance costs.

I’ve nothing against EV’s if you want one, for running about locally they seem a good option, IF you could buy a runabout for 15k or so for a small one not requiring taxpayer subsidy, that weighs 1 to 1.5 tons max. That would be fine. It doesn’t exist yet.

 

[outrun]

Tax breaks can’t last forever. None of the plans make sense, in less than 3 weeks 22% of each manufactures cars sold must be EV to avoid massive fines, ramping up to 80% by 2030. When such a small percentage of the population can actually afford an EV without massive tax breaks the only conclusion to be drawn is that basically the majority of the population are being deliberately excluded from buying a new car over the next 6 or 7 years. But I guess this aligns with the net zero lunatics who appear to control the worlds governments who openly state private car ownership should be eradicated…..

You may say in the next few years there will be loads of cheap second hand EV’s for the ‘masses’. But who will want one of those with potential 5 figure repair bills hanging over them along with insane insurance costs.

I’ve nothing against EV’s if you want one, for running about locally they seem a good option, IF you could buy a runabout for 15k or so for a small one not requiring taxpayer subsidy, that weighs 1 to 1.5 tons max. That would be fine. It doesn’t exist yet.

It's always the case that a minority shouts the loudest. We all absorb the noise and tolerate it in the main. But when you start to impact on civil liberty and freedom - in this case the ability to go where you want, when you want, and to do that without border or difficulty - then to you risk waking the masses. And that is where we seem to be heading. The green minority that are pushing doomsday scenarios on the masses are now passing the point of toleration. I agree that EVs have a place, but so do other solutions and the answer is likely to be a combination of many power sources. Eventually, the masses will revolt and that seems to be closer now than it's been for the past few years. It's not just the green agenda, but others too (we all know which ones). Once the politicians feel their majority being seriously threatened, then the messages will change. We are seeing that happen in Holland, in Poland, in Spain and are likely to see it happen in more and more places. The trouble is that offsetting the stupidity of the left, requires the hardening of the right. And we risk swinging right for a while to ultimately end up centre again for a while. See Nigel Farage for details.

 

[gb-gta]

Progress is fine, new technology moving things on etc etc. What I object to is banning things to force an agenda. Or loading the game in a big way in favour of one side (BIK in this case). Both are happening at the moment.
If the new tech is good enough people will vote with their wallets and buy it anyway. A free market, best product wins. Let’s face it, most people are not that interested in cars, it’s just an appliance. If they had a choice of a EV golf or a ICE golf, for the same price new, most would get the EV (if they could charge at home of course). You wouldn’t need to ban anything, people would just stop buying the older tech over time. But EV’s are still way too expensive and have many other issues, infrastructure/range etc, that are not going to be fixed in the next few years.

 

[DLax69]

As far as I can see, very few people on this forum buy new cars of the value of a Maserati or top-end EV. Most on here are in the buying -second-hand-to-save-on-depreciation camp. It allows us all to drive cars we otherwise might not. Especially most of the ones I buy, as they’ve been out of production for typically 20 years or more!

And some of us are dumb enough to have bought two brand new cars in the last two years. Or...uh...so I hear.

 

[mjheathcote]

The Mrs Audi A3 plugin is great. The in real life 20 to 30 mile EV range is more than enough for all the local running around we do, at 75p a charge overnight. Petrol engine for her longer business mileage in hybrid for better economy.
Its so good in full EV that when it's in full ICE, you realise how antiquated the ICE/gearbox combination is.
Company car, however I can't imagine buying it privately, due to cost, and in the future, it's so complicated with both systems and failures would be £££.

 

[Erlingtheyounger]

Tax breaks can’t last forever. None of the plans make sense, in less than 3 weeks 22% of each manufactures cars sold must be EV to avoid massive fines, ramping up to 80% by 2030. When such a small percentage of the population can actually afford an EV without massive tax breaks the only conclusion to be drawn is that basically the majority of the population are being deliberately excluded from buying a new car over the next 6 or 7 years. But I guess this aligns with the net zero lunatics who appear to control the worlds governments who openly state private car ownership should be eradicated…..

You may say in the next few years there will be loads of cheap second hand EV’s for the ‘masses’. But who will want one of those with potential 5 figure repair bills hanging over them along with insane insurance costs.

I’ve nothing against EV’s if you want one, for running about locally they seem a good option, IF you could buy a runabout for 15k or so for a small one not requiring taxpayer subsidy, that weighs 1 to 1.5 tons max. That would be fine. It doesn’t exist yet.

It does. It’s called an I3

 

[Felonious Crud]

This made me laugh:

Tesla removes Disney+ from vehicles amid Elon Musk's Twitter beef with Bob Iger

Tesla has removed Disney+ from some of its vehicles amid Elon Musk having an online fight with Disney CEO Bob...

electrek.co

 

[Motorsport3]

The Mrs Audi A3 plugin is great. The in real life 20 to 30 mile EV range is more than enough for all the local running around we do, at 75p a charge overnight. Petrol engine for her longer business mileage in hybrid for better economy.
Its so good in full EV that when it's in full ICE, you realise how antiquated the ICE/gearbox combination is.
Company car, however I can't imagine buying it privately, due to cost, and in the future, it's so complicated with both systems and failures would be £££.

Regarding that realisation of antiquated ICE, I had it last week while waiting for a train on the platform at Gatwick Airport and one of the diesel engine trains pulled next.

 

[Oneball]

You can’t use that piece of **** Lotus as a measure of all EVs. It’s just a hideous badge engineered Geely for the gullible.

 

[Ewan]

Tax breaks can’t last forever. None of the plans make sense, in less than 3 weeks 22% of each manufactures cars sold must be EV to avoid massive fines, ramping up to 80% by 2030. When such a small percentage of the population can actually afford an EV without massive tax breaks the only conclusion to be drawn is that basically the majority of the population are being deliberately excluded from buying a new car over the next 6 or 7 years. But I guess this aligns with the net zero lunatics who appear to control the worlds governments who openly state private car ownership should be eradicated…..

You may say in the next few years there will be loads of cheap second hand EV’s for the ‘masses’. But who will want one of those with potential 5 figure repair bills hanging over them along with insane insurance costs.

I’ve nothing against EV’s if you want one, for running about locally they seem a good option, IF you could buy a runabout for 15k or so for a small one not requiring taxpayer subsidy, that weighs 1 to 1.5 tons max. That would be fine. It doesn’t exist yet.

A 2 or 3 year old Peugeot 2008 EV is around £15k. There are other options, I just picked that as an example. Makes a great local run-about vehicle, and costs about £3 for a full charge (overnight, at home). This might make sense as a private buy for some people.

Current research shows that batteries should still have 95% life (charge capacity) after 10 years daily use. So the doomsday idea that all EV’s will be scrapped at about that age simply isn’t the case.

Apparently Nissan have some new battery developments coming soon. Twice the power and range at half the weight. Intended for the new GTR, but will obviously be rolled out across the board. Fingers crossed this happens (and at an affordable price!).

 

[Oneball]

Regarding that realisation of antiquated ICE, I had it last week while waiting for a train on the platform at Gatwick Airport and one of the diesel engine trains pulled next.

That diesel train probably had an electric motor driving the wheels.