Made in China

[Delmonte]

I've been moaning for years to anyone that will listen that stuff doesn't last. When I buy something I want to last forever. Or at least for A Very Long Time. When I point out that things used to be like that people just think im talking like an old fart. Even people my own generation, mid 40s

Say any of this sort of thing to Younger Lot and all you get is at best, blank looks, I mean they just glaze over completely, I may as well be talking Chinese.

There is a total and utter lack of comprehension about the evils of waste. Throwaway culture is here to stay (ironically)

Unfortunately, where we are, in late hyper - consumer capitalism, this is necessary for the system we have built to continue.

Where do China fit into all this? They just make (nearly) everything, of good and bad quality.

I seriously doubt that most people, when the virus shutdown ends or eases will put these things together. Whatever folk on here think about themselves we are unfortunately in the tiny minority of belonging to the chattering classes, we can have our little boycotts and ideals, but it will make no difference....

There is no one with any principles in politics any more. Ideology is dead (witness Trump the darling of the Right behaving economically like an extreme socialist).

Politicians only want votes and know the only way to get them is public spending and perceived quality of life, which for most voters means a cheap Big Mac and cheap clothes from Primark....

Nothing will change. Though I agree with your ideals and practice a lot of that stuff myself.... I think it's futile. Sorry for the bleak outlook...

 

[lozcb]

I blame the business model that's been perpetuated and glorified by the so called franchise Dragons Den , after every said entrepreneurs pitch, comes the dreaded question have you sourced manufacturing in China , it's become a habit and a recognised as the rule of thumb format , and it's exactly that format which as got to stop ,
At the same time Government has to take the lead , encouraging investment in overseas raw material sourcing , we used to be big in mining , iron ,copper , cobalt, tea , coffee agriculture etc shipping ( see Greta I'm learning) so you see we really have huge potential out there to rebuild the economy the way we need it to be , if it means tarrifs on Made in China so be it ,
Africa is ready for a certain level of manufacturing now too and could certainly do with the investment and knowledge transfer that is part and parcel , but has to be done on a much fairer level than during the colonial period .

I think this thread should get 4.5 stars out 5 as it seems to have generated the lengthiest and most time consuming answers ,

Coupled with a concerted I'm backing Britain campaign recognissant of the 70,s will go a long long way to improving a fairer less dependent social economic system for our younger generations . Trust me even the African nations are fed up with the Chinese exploitation and mass importation of Chinese junk ,it's where it all gets dumped

And to finish I rejoined the stupid o clock club

 

[Phil H]

I blame the business model that's been perpetuated and glorified by the so called franchise Dragons Den , after every said entrepreneurs pitch, comes the dreaded question have you sourced manufacturing in China , it's become a habit and a recognised as the rule of thumb format , and it's exactly that format which as got to stop ,
At the same time Government has to take the lead , encouraging investment in overseas raw material sourcing , we used to be big in mining , iron ,copper , cobalt, tea , coffee agriculture etc shipping ( see Greta I'm learning) so you see we really have huge potential out there to rebuild the economy the way we need it to be , if it means tarrifs on Made in China so be it ,
Africa is ready for a certain level of manufacturing now too and could certainly do with the investment and knowledge transfer that is part and parcel , but has to be done on a much fairer level than during the colonial period .

I think this thread should get 4.5 stars out 5 as it seems to have generated the lengthiest and most time consuming answers ,

Coupled with a concerted I'm backing Britain campaign recognissant of the 70,s will go a long long way to improving a fairer less dependent social economic system for our younger generations . Trust me even the African nations are fed up with the Chinese exploitation and mass importation of Chinese junk ,it's where it all gets dumped

And to finish I rejoined the stupid o clock club

I totally agree with the sentiment Loz. I worry though that the genie is already out of the bottle, and Chinese 'investors' have gained financial control or influence over big chunks of the globe, and especially Africa, over many years.

A story on the Beeb today suggests a deliberate attempt to capture UK technology, theoretically under cover of US law, then relocate it to the Caymans before finally taking ownership and patents back to China; if the story is true, it shows what you're up against:

MPs summon China-owned firm execs over security concerns

MPs to summon British based, Chinese-owned firm executives over plans to transfer sensitive technology.

www.bbc.co.uk

IMHO it would take great determination on the part of governments and consumers to turn the clock back, and the latter doesn't like tariffs!

PH

 

[zagatoes30]

Blaming any one nation for the state of consumerism today seems a bit off, there have always been nations that look to gain advantages over the centuries including the good old British empire. With in these there will be those that abuse that advantage and this would appear to be true is some parts of the far East but I suspect it would be difficult for a full boycott an any nation whilst it is in the ascendence.

Personally I try to avoid buying cheap stuff, normally if its cheap there is a reason, which means I don't buy much directly from China but I know lots of stuff I do buy may have been made there in some form or other. You can only live by your own conscience.

 

[mjheathcote]

Had an issue for years with cheap quality engineering pipe fittings.
Now it is a case of "do you want Chinese or UK manufacturer"
I always go for the UK, usually twice the price, simply because the Chinese is oval, under thickness, and out of tolerance, and consequently either doesn't fit or leaks!
However people still buy the stuff in the trade, make it fit and walk away.
The Chinese can make high quality stuff too, but the demand is for cheap, which I find is not to BS/EU standards, but very few seem to care, unless you are old school, like me.

 

[lozcb]

Had an issue for years with cheap quality engineering pipe fittings.
Now it is a case of "do you want Chinese or UK manufacturer"
I always go for the UK, usually twice the price, simply because the Chinese is oval, under thickness, and out of tolerance, and consequently either doesn't fit or leaks!
However people still buy the stuff in the trade, make it fit and walk away.
The Chinese can make high quality stuff too, but the demand is for cheap, which I find is not to BS/EU standards, but very few seem to care, unless you are old school, like me.

To me it all started with the common all garden kitchen tap, when exactly was it , that it was deemed logical or cost effective and acceptable for a leaking tap to be fixed by a simple exchange of a 2p rubber washer, and replace it with a complete unit , which takes 2 or 3 times longer and probably 800 times the cost .................its madness ................and dont get me started on plastic plumbing pipe and fittings ............................thats a time bomb waiting to happen anytime soon for every household,

 

[Vampyrebat]

Prevent depression, I was fine before I read that , I'm on my way to the garage to look for rope now

Make sure it is the finest quality British manufactured rope!!

 

[Delmonte]

To me it all started with the common all garden kitchen tap, when exactly was it , that it was deemed logical or cost effective and acceptable for a leaking tap to be fixed by a simple exchange of a 2p rubber washer, and replace it with a complete unit , which takes 2 or 3 times longer and probably 800 times the cost .................its madness ................and dont get me started on plastic plumbing pipe and fittings ............................thats a time bomb waiting to happen anytime soon for every household,

That particular time bomb blew up on me just 1 month after a complete refit of my bathroom...
Cowboy numpty bathroom fitter used flexi pipes.... flexing pipes flexed, bowed..... water from shower, underneath tiled floor, wouldn’t drain..... had to drill huge hole through the ******* kitchen ceiling to access underneath bathroom and fix...

 

[Delmonte]

I totally agree with the sentiment Loz. I worry though that the genie is already out of the bottle, and Chinese 'investors' have gained financial control or influence over big chunks of the globe, and especially Africa, over many years.

A story on the Beeb today suggests a deliberate attempt to capture UK technology, theoretically under cover of US law, then relocate it to the Caymans before finally taking ownership and patents back to China; if the story is true, it shows what you're up against:

MPs summon China-owned firm execs over security concerns

MPs to summon British based, Chinese-owned firm executives over plans to transfer sensitive technology.

www.bbc.co.uk

IMHO it would take great determination on the part of governments and consumers to turn the clock back, and the latter doesn't like tariffs!

PH

Governments don’t have the determination, foresight or idealism, to deal with it. They’ll have it even less when their state and public are both destitute and cannot afford goods to go up in price. Inflation is going to happen anyway.... Tarrifs would make it even worse if you’re going to tariff the place where everything ‘cheap’ comes from.....
we don’t have the manufacturing capacity to build all that stuff ourselves, if we were to develop that would take years, and stuff would still never be as cheap unless we remove all workers rights, benefits and minimum wages... and would probably have to remove all benefits to give an incentive to work for buttons.... essentially unless we adopt slave labour....

 

[Wack61]

Had an issue for years with cheap quality engineering pipe fittings.
Now it is a case of "do you want Chinese or UK manufacturer"
I always go for the UK, usually twice the price, simply because the Chinese is oval, under thickness, and out of tolerance, and consequently either doesn't fit or leaks!
However people still buy the stuff in the trade, make it fit and walk away.
The Chinese can make high quality stuff too, but the demand is for cheap, which I find is not to BS/EU standards, but very few seem to care, unless you are old school, like me.

The company I used to provide the transport for used to make everything in house from UK made components but as the competitors undercut them and the customers started to leave they had no choice but to move production to china, the MD hated it , now it's just final assembly in the UK, 10 in the factory instead of 60 , however no longer sourced from china, the samples were good, first few months of supply, good, then the quality started to drop , machining of parts not accurate so requiring re machining in the UK by the companies that lost the work , no doubt at a take it or leave it price

So china got binned , last I heard they were made in Vietnam, there are alternatives to China , it'd be great if production could come back to the UK but the end user doesn't want to pay the bill

 

[2b1ask1]

Having experienced it first hand, I can confirm the problem with quality in China is due mostly to the corruption that is endemic from the top to the bottom As Wack says the samples will be superb, place the order and the delivered product will be what you get! You pay up front on orders and often the price will change with more payment required before goods are dispatched. The corruption plays a significant part in that the materials (raw & processed) will be below spec, with inclusions, cheaper ingredients or sourced material, the goods in guy at the factory will be on the make to turn a blind eye, the boss will keep his eye turned as he is paying slightly less, the assembly people are unskilled and won't know what they should be seeing or working with. The aim is to get the container door shut on time and then it is your (customer) problem! The gym co. used to send me out to oversee a production run but I couldn't see really very much with all the diversionary tricks they employed! through to the production manager taking me for very extended lunches etc. Then the gym Co. employed a lad from Taiwan and he lasted less than 3 months before the boss took him to spas whorehouses etc. to corrupt him! I managed (after the second Chinese New Year debacle) to convince them to manufacture in the UK and it probably saved the company as their reputation for quality was in tatters! Now they are world leaders in quality... Still manufacturing in the UK but now in Newcastle/Gateshead although they are experimenting with India against my advice!

 

[lozcb]

Having experienced it first hand, I can confirm the problem with quality in China is due mostly to the corruption that is endemic from the top to the bottom As Wack says the samples will be superb, place the order and the delivered product will be what you get! You pay up front on orders and often the price will change with more payment required before goods are dispatched. The corruption plays a significant part in that the materials (raw & processed) will be below spec, with inclusions, cheaper ingredients or sourced material, the goods in guy at the factory will be on the make to turn a blind eye, the boss will keep his eye turned as he is paying slightly less, the assembly people are unskilled and won't know what they should be seeing or working with. The aim is to get the container door shut on time and then it is your (customer) problem! The gym co. used to send me out to oversee a production run but I couldn't see really very much with all the diversionary tricks they employed! through to the production manager taking me for very extended lunches etc. Then the gym Co. employed a lad from Taiwan and he lasted less than 3 months before the boss took him to spas whorehouses etc. to corrupt him! I managed (after the second Chinese New Year debacle) to convince them to manufacture in the UK and it probably saved the company as their reputation for quality was in tatters! Now they are world leaders in quality... Still manufacturing in the UK but now in Newcastle/Gateshead although they are experimenting with India against my advice!

Exactly the reason my missus was out there 11 years , hers was electronics industry , she went out as production manager and finished up Director of operations , all the best western companies have their own expat as quality control ,both in purchasing and production , the biggest problem was ripping off of the companies R and D , all done here in MK and then implemented out there on production lines, From the 2nd year in 96 they regularly had the trainee managers leave only to start up in competition ,all government funded ,and it's still happening now to this current day ,with all there product lines , Now taken over by Murata ( Japanese) I shouldn't be surprised now if it's relocated else where as Japan have just announced this week and allocated a 4.5 billion dollar war chest for Japanese companies to relocate elsewhere

 

[namaste]

When something on ebay has a union jack in the thumbnail its normally a sign its a chinese seller. Scroll down the listing to the seller's name and address and you'll usually find some chinese gobbledygook.

 

[lozcb]

When something on ebay has a union jack in the thumbnail its normally a sign its a chinese seller. Scroll down the listing to the seller's name and address and you'll usually find some chinese gobbledygook.

Before i have never had a problem because i too was toooooooo focussed on price , but what you noticed is that the delivery dates were well off , which made me start checking and doing exactly what you have suggested , now i dont buy off ebay unless there is a European tel number so you can chase things up

 

[2b1ask1]

The generator I bought at the weekend for my lift is labelled as German design and the reality is it is pure Chinesium... but a 3-phase petrol generator set for £280 new is cheep as chips and I’m likely to only use it rarely so it will suit my needs. I wouldn't buy Chinese if there was a good choice to be had. The trouble is the West wants cheap and has paid the price of having our industry stolen from us, we have even given it freely.

I will be buying a new MIG welder this year I’m sure and it will be UK made to order. That is my choice and I’ll probably pay x 2 over Chinese priced equivalent but it will last a lifetime.

 

[lozcb]

The generator I bought at the weekend for my lift is labelled as German design and the reality is it is pure Chinesium... but a 3-phase petrol generator set for £280 new is cheep as chips and I’m likely to only use it rarely so it will suit my needs. I wouldn't buy Chinese if there was a good choice to be had. The trouble is the West wants cheap and has paid the price of having our industry stolen from us, we have even given it freely.

I will be buying a new MIG welder this year I’m sure and it will be UK made to order. That is my choice and I’ll probably pay x 2 over Chinese priced equivalent but it will last a lifetime.

Even the Stalwek i have , although German name and assembled in Germany is 80% manufactured in their plant in China , and then final assembly and additional mods carried out in gemany before shipping out ....................... a good UK or german 7kw genny will knock you back a £1000-£1500 ..................but will last forever if its serviced properly

 

[Oishi]

For those that are unfamiliar with the phrase "lawfare" please do some research. There used to be a wiki article on it, but China had it removed. IIRC there was a paper written by 2 Chinese Airforce Colonels describing the use of a nation's own laws against them. The CCP has been actively engaged in economic, political, and social lawfare for decades. Those car batteries we were discussing on another thread are an excellent example.
For years China flooded the market with cheap, subsidized batteries, driving local manufacturing companies out of business. At the same time contributions to environmental groups pushed regulations that made raw material difficult to source locally. (think of CV19 and the WHO toeing the Chinese line). The final nail was health and safety regs. changed to make manufacture next to impossible. Game, Set, Match. Lather, rinse, repeat. The Chinese have used these techniques to gain an advantage in markets around the world, and continue to flout environmental laws, intellectual property laws, and trade agreements for their own advantage. They have sold us cheap goods, purchased what they could, and stole what they could not buy.

 

[Oishi]

Loz, I really need your tin hat design. My head is killing me......

 

[lozcb]

For those that are unfamiliar with the phrase "lawfare" please do some research. There used to be a wiki article on it, but China had it removed. IIRC there was a paper written by 2 Chinese Airforce Colonels describing the use of a nation's own laws against them. The CCP has been actively engaged in economic, political, and social lawfare for decades. Those car batteries we were discussing on another thread are an excellent example.
For years China flooded the market with cheap, subsidized batteries, driving local manufacturing companies out of business. At the same time contributions to environmental groups pushed regulations that made raw material difficult to source locally. (think of CV19 and the WHO toeing the Chinese line). The final nail was health and safety regs. changed to make manufacture next to impossible. Game, Set, Match. Lather, rinse, repeat. The Chinese have used these techniques to gain an advantage in markets around the world, and continue to flout environmental laws, intellectual property laws, and trade agreements for their own advantage. They have sold us cheap goods, purchased what they could, and stole what they could not buy.

Now things have to change ....................................ive already bought a dribble bib for me and the missus , dont think we'll need much else lol

 

[Silvercat]

Believe me guys, after 31 years of supporting UK military operations all over the world, our continuing dependency on China for the supply of so many requirements will ultimately be at our peril. China is tolerated in the west (up until now at least) but we should not forget that China has an agenda to become the No.1 economic and military super power in the world .....and seemingly at any cost considering their actions. Look at their military and territorial ambitions in the South China Seas and the much disputed Spratley islands. US military forces have already come close to conflict with China on several occasions in that region and frankly it is against this backdrop why the status quo cannot be allowed to continue. We have got to become less dependant and much more independant of China and its influence.
End of sermon..honest!!