PPI 2006 GranSport LE Thrust Bearing Rattle

[CraigWaterman11]

Guys figured I would drop this here from a PPI I performed on Saturday. There were a few issues on the car but one of the best looking GSs I've seen in a little while. I definitely like the LE with the badges embedded in the fenders however,............the deal breaker for the client in CA was the clutch issue.

I warmed the car up and heard it after 10 min. The thrust bearing rattle. I recognized it because I've heard it before in a car that needed to have it replaced. On the test drive it also had the clutch judder from take off. The car was somewhat sensing it because the NCR wouldn't allow the car to fully flat foot the throttle off the line. Clutch wear stated 50.44% but I'm quite positive the issue needed to be addressed.

Of course the Client was happy I caught the issue, but the Seller not so much. Actually I'm pretty sure the Seller had it in his mind to just sell the car to the next person who has someone come in and doesn't know any better. His response to me was, "I'm in this business to make money, not to break even." This response was given to me about negotiating for the car with the client. Because of the amount he knew it would cost to fix the issue, he didn't even want to talk to the client anymore. Mind you, this gentleman had a very nice Porsche shop, with a fully race ready (newer) Porsche sitting in the garage. Looks like they owned it, and a few new F350's out front with fully enclosed trailers to haul their cars. I don't want to tell you what I offered to do all the work. I will tell you no one could beat me in the price I gave to him.

Anyway, here's what it sounds like:

https://www.facebook.com/WhiteDovesEstore/videos/vb.103155266456227/805864636185283/?type=3&theater

 

[adam01]

Guys figured I would drop this here from a PPI I performed on Saturday. There were a few issues on the car but one of the best looking GSs I've seen in a little while. I definitely like the LE with the badges embedded in the fenders however,............the deal breaker for the client in CA was the clutch issue.

I warmed the car up and heard it after 10 min. The thrust bearing rattle. I recognized it because I've heard it before in a car that needed to have it replaced. On the test drive it also had the clutch judder from take off. The car was somewhat sensing it because the NCR wouldn't allow the car to fully flat foot the throttle off the line. Clutch wear stated 50.44% but I'm quite positive the issue needed to be addressed.

Of course the Client was happy I caught the issue, but the Seller not so much. Actually I'm pretty sure the Seller had it in his mind to just sell the car to the next person who has someone come in and doesn't know any better. His response to me was, "I'm in this business to make money, not to break even." This response was given to me about negotiating for the car with the client. Because of the amount he knew it would cost to fix the issue, he didn't even want to talk to the client anymore. Mind you, this gentleman had a very nice Porsche shop, with a fully race ready (newer) Porsche sitting in the garage. Looks like they owned it, and a few new F350's out front with fully enclosed trailers to haul their cars. I don't want to tell you what I offered to do all the work. I will tell you no one could beat me in the price I gave to him.

Anyway, here's what it sounds like:

https://www.facebook.com/WhiteDovesEstore/videos/vb.103155266456227/805864636185283/?type=3&theater

Interesting

Torque tube bearings tend to make a similar sound when worn, particularly if the car is idled for a while

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Interesting

Torque tube bearings tend to make a similar sound when worn, particularly if the car is idled for a while

I don't know how well it caught on the video. This was really distinct, at least it was for me, right at the bell housing. When the thrust bearing is worn it gets really loose. Here's the really unfortunate thing I actually could have posted exactly what part of the bearing makes the noise but I threw the bearing away thinking I didn't need it for anything when I changed the last one.

When you take the bearing out. The part that rides right on the pressure plate face should not spin freely, easily. When you put your fingers on it you can turn it but if you push off of it to spin it fast it shouldn't go all the way around loosely. The bearing should have a slight resistance, similar to a wheel bearing. But once it gets loose, this is the rattle it makes.

Actually, I just found someone else's video changing out the thrust bearing/slave cylinder in a Quat. He's describing exactly what I'm talking about. That rattle you hear in the video is this type of worn bearing rattling around in neutral.

[video=youtube;lo2-_qzwe9k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo2-_qzwe9k[/video]

 

[Contigo]

[video=youtube;lo2-_qzwe9k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo2-_qzwe9k[/video]

That's a rather informative video once the lady shuts up and let's Dan get a word in edgeways!

 

[safrane]

I have heard this on a 4200 I viewed and was told by Marios that it was the TB. It was nkt as noisy as this...is it a vital repair? I was informed it was nothing to worry about and to fix at clutch change time.

The lady I was looking for decided to get a Aston instead.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

I have heard this on a 4200 I viewed and was told by Marios that it was the TB. It was nkt as noisy as this...is it a vital repair? I was informed it was nothing to worry about and to fix at clutch change time.

The lady I was looking for decided to get a Aston instead.

Yes, I feel that it is because personally I believe there's no way of knowing of how long it will last this way. Second to that, did that car have clutch judder and uptake problems? In this car I believe this was contributing to it, or causing it. Remember its a PPI, and the client is number 1. I don't know about Mario's, but I do know that sound, and it was only rectified by changing the TO bearing.

I could not in good conscience inform the client to purchase the car ship it 3000 miles away for it to fail. I would of looked really ridiculous dropping a gearbox in the client's driveway because he bought the car. I know PPIs don't mean a lot to most shops. But with me, especially in an issue like this, if I tell you its OK, my word is what carries. There's some things I cannot forsee, obviously I don't have a crystal ball. This one I could. So the repair was on me if it did fail .

 

[safrane]

The clutch was perfect on pick up and the only issue was after the car was left running in N that the rattle started. It stopped again after going into gear and then would be quite for a good ten mina before starting again.

There was no juddering from the clutch at all...it was also less than 50% worn from main dealer change.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

The clutch was perfect on pick up and the only issue was after the car was left running in N that the rattle started. It stopped again after going into gear and then would be quite for a good ten mina before starting again.

There was no juddering from the clutch at all...it was also less than 50% worn from main dealer change.

Well between you and I, I of course would run it till she locks up or the seals start to leak. But, if I was performing a PPI on it, I would tell them to address it. I use Hill Engineering, actually I don't know if the video stated it but I could see the bearing they put in was from Hill as well. The problem with it again is, you really don't know how long it will run well loose that way. But what I might run, or tell even a normal person in their car to run will be different than what I require of a dealership selling the car. If it was a car being sold between two friends I was preforming a PPI on, I would tell them flip a coin, or split the difference. IF the person still wanted the car, I'm not there for that. I'm there to solely provide the best top notched assessment I can.

Actually, I don't know if I stated it or not I did a PPI between two individuals a month ago, and the leakage rates were way out on the car, with the pump cycling everything 30 seconds and everything. The customer still paid the guy close to the asking price anyway. But that was an informed decision on his part. He wasn't hood winked into purchasing a car with bad leakage rates. He was taking the car knowing he needed to replace the solenoid valves.

 

[philw696]

Out of interest I was told since working at Maserati and working with a Master Tech that the rattle that comes from the torque tube when the car is idling is normal and they will all do it.
Obviously the thrust bearing is a different matter and our chosen method is to renew the lot as good practice but a lot of you guys think we are just Dealer Stealers but as you are aware there is hours of work involved and we have to guarantee that work.

 

[2b1ask1]

Rock and a hard place Phil...

Have you ever heard of torque tube bearings needing replacing, if indeed there are any?

 

[philw696]

When the time comes to do my own Im not saying I will change the lot I will look and evaluate it all.
I know its a little easier for me now as we have the parts in stock so I can do as I need.
As far as Im aware Newton not had a torque tube fail and when you realize how heavy they are you will see why.
You need to be like a Marine setting up an artillery gun.
Full Respect to Craig doing it his way cant be in his 50,s yet

 

[CatmanV2]

When the time comes to do my own Im not saying I will change the lot I will look and evaluate it all.
I know its a little easier for me now as we have the parts in stock so I can do as I need.
As far as Im aware Newton not had a torque tube fail and when you realize how heavy they are you will see why.
You need to be like a Marine setting up an artillery gun.
Full Respect to Craig doing it his way cant be in his 50,s yet

Craig doesn't look a day over 65

C

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Out of interest I was told since working at Maserati and working with a Master Tech that the rattle that comes from the torque tube when the car is idling is normal and they will all do it.
Obviously the thrust bearing is a different matter and our chosen method is to renew the lot as good practice but a lot of you guys think we are just Dealer Stealers but as you are aware there is hours of work involved and we have to guarantee that work.

Phil, don't be offended brother. Here I was explaining it one way for these guys but for you and I, let me do this. Because it's a dealership, and you also work on these, I require a higher rate of accountability. ( I obviously don't require perfection or for you to be a foreteller). I don't think every dealership is a stealership. I don't know about in other parts of the world, just in the U.S. People pay the highest premiums to get work done on their vehicles. The guy in CA paid me really well to perform the PPI because he knew who I was. So with the money he paid me, he expected the best. Though, I was hoping it checked out, it didn't. However, what if I convinced him it was a great car and the TO bearing went within the first 3000 miles? Do I owe him anything? No, legally I don't. But between you and I, as a Maserati/Ferrari Tech, do I? Because of the spirit of it, I think so. I need to fly my a$$ (we've been on this on another thread all day) out there to California to fix his car. Why? Because when I wear two of the most well known marquees on my left shoulder, in my mind that's what's required, that's what we do. It wouldn't be the Brand's fault, it would be mine.

Ironically, the two individuals I did the PPI on I mentioned above. Well, that Seller bought the car from Colorado and had the PPI done by the biggest Maserati dealership there. He couldn't understand how it passed the PPI by them and suddenly the solenoid leakage rates were so bad after a short time of ownership. Guess what, he was right, they put the leakage rates right on the PPI. They nit picked about, in my mind dumb stuff, and left the most glaring problem unstated. To be honest they should have cautioned him, like I did the buyer. Just so we are clear it had a 120cc/min on and 50 cc/min (or 60 off can't remember) but it was way out of spec. on their paperwork they gave him.

Don't feel offended, I'm not aiming any of this post at you. I respect all the guys who do it the right way. My dad is a Master Mechanic for Tractor Trailers. I just grew up this way.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

ROFL.............what did I miss out on when I was typing. Chris I'm the best looking 60 year old you've ever met!

 

[adam01]

Out of interest I was told since working at Maserati and working with a Master Tech that the rattle that comes from the torque tube when the car is idling is normal and they will all do it.
Obviously the thrust bearing is a different matter and our chosen method is to renew the lot as good practice but a lot of you guys think we are just Dealer Stealers but as you are aware there is hours of work involved and we have to guarantee that work.

Endorse the above comment re torque tube had the same said to me by MT

Happening with mine for some time

Need to be replaced when the noise becomes excessive and constant (ie not idle i guess)

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Could someone just clarify it for me. Your saying the TT bearings are noisy, there's no issues while driving, no vibration, or drone while it's under load. Just at idle in N the bearings rattle? I just don't understand. I've never seen this anywhere in the automotive field with any type of bearing like what's in the torque tube where it could rattle, cause this much noise, not be out of spec or failing, and only produce the noise at the bell housing. I do want to understand though.

 

[adam01]

Could someone just clarify it for me.


Your saying the TT bearings are noisy,

yes but only noticeable with prolonged idle

there's no issues while driving, no vibration, or drone while it's under load.

Correct

Just at idle in N the bearings rattle?

Yes


I just don't understand.

sorry...cant help with this one

I've never seen this anywhere in the automotive field with any type of bearing like what's in the torque tube where it could rattle, cause this much noise, not be out of spec or failing, and only produce the noise at the bell housing. I do want to understand though.

Craig,

As outlined above ....as explained to me by the tech and from 4 years of experience with the slight noise

Hven't bother to check the dia. explosion to see which bearing is offending,

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Craig,

As outlined above ....as explained to me by the tech and from 4 years of experience with the slight noise

Hven't bother to check the dia. explosion to see which bearing is offending,

Well, I don't know about your car. I can only say what I've personally seen in front of me, what I've taken apart. The car made the exact noise I posted in the video, the TO bearing did the exact same thing as we saw in the second video. I changed the clutch/TO/F1 sensor. I didn't touch the TT. It wasn't heard again.

I appreciate your experience though. What else can I say? Should you ever change your clutch out, or TT let us know if it solved the problem. I can't work in a vacuum, I have to follow the results. I heard the noise coming from the bell housing. I felt/saw how loose the TO was (it's in the bell housing) when I took it apart. I wasn't looking to fix that specific noise, but it never come back after I replaced it with the clutch, and F1 sensor. How else do I interpret the factual data I had before me?

 

[safrane]

Is there a way to determine if its torque tube or the TB?

 

[adam01]

^^^

not sure

In my case, listening with a screw driver blade touching the TT where the noise seem to come from gave a reasonable idea

not very technical