Top priced 3200 this is.......

MAF260

Member
Messages
7,662
Please don't take is as a personal thing and don't stop posting. There are plenty of things to comment on, but neither you or anyone else is in a position to value a car they haven't inspected and investigated.

I should amend this to 'openly value a car they haven't inspected....'
 
Last edited:

Andyk

Member
Messages
61,186
Well thats sorted that then ...... Lets talk about ...I know the Olympics .. A total waste of tax payers money in this current climate....
 

ENZ525

Member
Messages
6,748
Children! Play nice, or someone will end up on the naughty step!

Well said Benny...I don't think anyone is trying to talk prices down, and there is no point in trying to talk them up either!
If I am selling something, one of the first things I do is have a look at the market, what's out there, how does it compare to what I am trying to sell, condition, rarity...
and price it accordingly...as has been said before, it is only worth what someone else is willing to pay...if I don't want to sell it for that, then I may end up keeping it :D
 

BennyD

Sea Urchin Pate
Messages
15,006
Or try the market with an outrageous price. If it sells, then buy something similar, cheaper!!
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Please don't take is as a personal thing and don't stop posting. There are plenty of things to comment on, but neither you or anyone else is in a position to value a car they haven't inspected and investigated.

Hi MAF, Though I have no argument with the crux of your concern, hasn't Adam only done what we all do and made an initial assessment based on the criteria supporting the sale? Yes this is open forum, and yes that needs to be bourn in mind, but impressions of value are made everyday based on the factors presented. When I look to upgrade I will not be going to look at each and every example on the market at that time, I will narrow it down based on the initially presented factors. This process does not necessarily drive sale success / market value, but surely it influences it?

Em.
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,342
right i will shut the **** up then :D:D
I agree with what you've said Adam. The values speak for themselves. A 3200 in amazing nick with lowish miles on the clock is worth roughly £14k, a 4200 about £19k and a GS £26k. All cars will then differ from these figures due to the usual, age, history, colour, condition, owners etc. Few buyers IMO would pay more for a 3200 than they could buy a 4200 for and likewise those able to stretch to a GS wouldn't buy a 4200. Many of us speculate about future values of cars purely based on the brand trends and never even go to look at them. The Market dictates what any car is worth. We all hope that a buyer will come along and pay over the odds for our cars but when selling, privately or from a dealership, price is the one thing that will attract us to go and look and get us talking. As owners, none of us are trying to drive prices down, simply be realistic about their values.
 
Last edited:

MAF260

Member
Messages
7,662
Hi Miles. I don't disagree with the process that all/most buyers follow. The issue I am addressing is the generalisation of values and unfounded individual valuations. 'That's worth x' and 'ACs fetch y' are neither informed, nor informative as they are based without foundation. I would be very upset to see my Maserati discussed and down-valued by others who knew nothing of it or hadn't viewed it, as I am sure most owners would.
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,342
I would've thought as relative experts on the cars, discussing them each evening, we'd all be very close to the owner's honest opinions of each other's car's values and any others on the road if we were to estimate purely from a detailed description. I reckon a lot of us would be no more than £1k apart. That may be further from the advertised value, but then again, that's exactly what this debate concerns.
 

Parisien

Moderator
Messages
34,927
Any of the cars advertised are worth......plus or minus.......1/2/3/4/5 or more thousands depending on 5/10/20 variables.......................but it usually boils down to...."Am I or another buyer prepared to send X amount on this car based on the info/inspection to hand or not?"

Short of going to see the car and or an inspection.......its all up in the air.....and people will put forward endless opinions and guesses.........such is humanity.....

P
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Hi Miles. I don't disagree with the process that all/most buyers follow. The issue I am addressing is the generalisation of values and unfounded individual valuations. 'That's worth x' and 'ACs fetch y' are neither informed, nor informative as they are based without foundation. I would be very upset to see my Maserati discussed and down-valued by others who knew nothing of it or hadn't viewed it, as I am sure most owners would.

Hi MAF, The theory of your argument is (as far as I'm concerned) undisputed, but I do want to query some of your wording?.. "unfounded"? "based without foundation"? When I come to buying my next car, what do I need to do (in between everything else that occupies my life) to be on a firm foundation without doing what Adam has done and indeed what dickygrace has done?

Yes in an ideal situation each and every buyer would view each and every car that a) they are emotionally attracted to, b) meets their requirements and c) can afford, and therefore arm themselves with each and every actual factor they choose to use as measurement before deciding their impression of any appropriate examples value, but for most life doesn't allow for this and so they rely on key indicators, and yes we're talking about key indicators someone else has decided upon, but we're talking about key indicators that have driven the used market for many decades, whether related to cars or other items offered for sale (a house is another good example).

It seems (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that if I follow your argument, Pistonheads classified would be a generic model description, and a price; nothing more. No photo's, no mention of condition and care, no mention of usage or location, storage, modification, mileage, age, etc, etc, as these are all key indicators that could lead to a misconstrued impression of value prior to actual viewing and therefore a potentially unfair pre-selection?

I do have to say that, in real-life terms, I see no issue in the comments Adam made, as I know he keeps a keen eye on the market indicators, albeit predominantly internet driven I assume, but isn't this true of almost all of us?

As for sharing his views on the forum, then yes this demands common courtesy, but taking that as read, isn't that the purpose and nature of a forum?

Cheers, Miles.
 

MAF260

Member
Messages
7,662
Hi MAF, The theory of your argument is (as far as I'm concerned) undisputed, but I do want to query some of your wording?.. "unfounded"? "based without foundation"? When I come to buying my next car, what do I need to do (in between everything else that occupies my life) to be on a firm foundation without doing what Adam has done and indeed what dickygrace has done?

Yes in an ideal situation each and every buyer would view each and every car that a) they are emotionally attracted to, b) meets their requirements and c) can afford, and therefore arm themselves with each and every actual factor they choose to use as measurement before deciding their impression of any appropriate examples value, but for most life doesn't allow for this and so they rely on key indicators, and yes we're talking about key indicators someone else has decided upon, but we're talking about key indicators that have driven the used market for many decades, whether related to cars or other items offered for sale (a house is another good example).

It seems (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that if I follow your argument, Pistonheads classified would be a generic model description, and a price; nothing more. No photo's, no mention of condition and care, no mention of usage or location, storage, modification, mileage, age, etc, etc, as these are all key indicators that could lead to a misconstrued impression of value prior to actual viewing and therefore a potentially unfair pre-selection?

I do have to say that, in real-life terms, I see no issue in the comments Adam made, as I know he keeps a keen eye on the market indicators, albeit predominantly internet driven I assume, but isn't this true of almost all of us?

As for sharing his views on the forum, then yes this demands common courtesy, but taking that as read, isn't that the purpose and nature of a forum?

Cheers, Miles.

Hi Miles,

I didn't want to linger on Adam's posts, but let's use them as examples here. I'm not aware that he's buying any of the cars for sale, merely commenting on them and stating a value as a fact, so I don't disagree with your second paragraph but don't see it's relevance in this debate. Were a member interested in viewing a car and canvassing opinions then of course they would employ much of what you have said.

I don't follow your point about Pistonheads? In no way does your third paragraph reflect my stated views or comments. In fact Adam's and others comments about value reflect this approach - 'for a 2000 car it should be about £12k' - a value based on a car model and year of manufacture, nothing more.

I agree that many of us keep a keen eye on the markets - this market includes the two 3200s being discussed on the forum which are being offered for sale at £15k+; my 3200 sold for the same not too long ago. Perhaps that's a fair market price then, so why should the car in question be 'worth' £12k? I stand by my comment that this and other valuations are openly stated as fact and are without foundation.

Again I do not question that the forum is all about views (and hopefully lively debate!) but my concern is that many of these opinions are being stated as fact. I am currently Maser-less, so am not affected by this - indeed, if somebody wants to start a thread that says 2010 GTS MC Shifts are only worth £30k then I'll be in one much sooner! - however I maintain that there are numerous owners of cars on here and elsewhere that won't want their pride and joys publically generalised and de-valued.
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,640
Guys, I feel this topic is descend to an uncomfortable place.

I dont like moderating, I dont like locking threads and I respect as MAF points out the this is a forum to openly discuss such issues, which in this case we appear to have 2 distinct sides forming.

Can I just ask you all choose your words carefully so as not to come over aggressively.

Carry on...
 

BennyD

Sea Urchin Pate
Messages
15,006
IMO, there are merits to both points of view. There is a generic value for a car made in a particular year, Glasses Guide is full of them. All the factors stated affect that value in different ways, high mileage, service history etc. A 2000 3200 may have a generic value of £12k but anyone who has done his research will know that a cosseted car with low miles, kept in a heated garage, driven carefully and has a pile of receipts may be worth £15k whereas one that is not looked after etc may be worth 8k. The true worth of the car is the one given to it by the purchaser. That said, IMO, Adam was correct in stating there is a generic value but he should be wary as ascribing that value to all 2000 3200's and I would venture that anyone seriously thinking of buying would appreciate that statements about generic value are exactly that, a ball-park figure. In any event, it's not worth falling out about!
 

sibradbury

New Member
Messages
201
An interesting thing I have noticed is that Glasses guide / What Car valuation of rarer cars are often way off the mark - probably because only poor examples go through auction houses and thus command a much smaller price. I presume that these guides have an equation for working out private and dealer prices off the auction price as this is the only firm data they have access to regarding sales price. Otherwise these guides must look into a crystal ball and see what people paid at the forecourt or privately.

I looked at buying a year or so ago a Porsche 997 from OPC and they quoted me 2k trade in for my 968 - against a 32k 997. Okay it had high miles, but even they ran off glasses guide. The salesman didn't even know which model my car was. I sold it privately for 5k and even that was cheap at that time when most were going for 7-10k and mine only had average miles (12k miles a year = 190k miles on the clock).

I think that actually we are better placed for valuation of Maseratis than most and that most of us on here are probably about right to within +/- £2k depending on condition/colour combo etc. Then maybe +2k on top for a dealer and +4k for a specialist / main dealer. But crucially, in my view, our valuations would still be far greater than the 'professional' Glasses guide valuation...
 

Parisien

Moderator
Messages
34,927
...the only true arbiter of value is.......................what is someone going to pay for it.............................and of course backed up by an Indie Inspection................simple equation in the end.



P
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Perhaps what this boils down to is the use of..... "(IMO)"...... following a statement when appropriate.

I've always been happy to accept this as implicit within forum activity without actually needing to see it written in a post, but its inclusion does make it explicit.

Em.