Possible Ghibli Purchase Advice

[Guv]

Hello all

New member here and I am after some advice from the knowledgeable people on this forum. I've been driving modern German cars for a few years now, I've tried all 3 of the well known marques, BMW, Mercedes and I currently drive an Audi (go easy on me ) and I've come to realise that competent though all these cars are, they are ultimately a bit...well boring and I've got a hankering for something a bit more interesting. Now my favourite era of cars seems to be the 90's and I have driven some lovely German and Japanese cars from that era but I've never owned anything Italian and I think it's on the bucket list of things to do so with that in mind, I've started to think about a Ghibli.

I've been doing lots of research which is what led me to this site and I am aware that a Ghibli has it's quirks and may not be as reliable as some of the cars I've driven (not that German cars are always as reliable as they are cracked up to be either) so just want to know a few questions.

1) What are the main points issues to look out for on the Ghibli? I know they are prone to rust but how prevalent is this really? I've also read about the servicing requirements but have no idea of ongoing running\maintenance costs.
2) If I decide it's the car for me, I will probably be after a late 2.0 litre RHD manual. Are there any decent ones for sale at the moment and what's the going rate for a clean example?
3) Are there any well known servicing sales specialists in the North London\Herts area that people can recommend as I know it will be important to get a Ghibli looked after by someone who knows what they are doing?
4) This last one may be a long shot\out of reach but I've also read about the Ghibli cup (road going version). Now I understand these are rare as hens teeth but how often do these come up for sale and what's the going rate. I seem to be able to find prices from a few years ago but nothing recent. This is probably the part where you tell me that prices have risen to the stratosphere in the last couple of years!

It's not definite yet but I think need to do something before I die from terminal boredom with my current steed so hopefully you can convince me that Ghibli ownership is a good idea!

 

[dickygrace]

Hi Guv and welcome to the fold. I'll try to help you out with a few of your questions. Ghibli II's are lovely cars when well looked after. They, like any Italian car of the era are prone to rust, but good examples do exist out there which are rust free. I would advise anyone who's looking for one to have an indie inspection prior to purchase. To run a good example which has nothing outstanding at the time of purchase, £1000 pa should see you ok to do say 2-3000 miles per year. A bad one could easily cost you £15000 to sort out and bring up to speed. A late 'GT' would probably be your best bet and for a clean example you'd look to pay circa £20000. The fact you've said manual (most people want) and RHD (not many about) will limit your choices, LHD means you're able to search the European market if this is something you'd consider.

There are a couple of places I know of near you:

http://www.mcgrathmaserati.co.uk/

Or a short trip round the M25, http://www.prestigeandperformancecars.co.uk

These guys (Andy at McGrath's and Mark at Prestige), could be a good place to ask as a start along with:

http://www.emblemsportscars.com or http://www.autoshieldmaserati.co.uk, although not local, may well be able to help you out with your search. Most good cars tend to sell before going to the open market but this place is worth keeping an eye on:

http://www.maserati-alfieri.co.uk/alfieri00a.htm

Regards Ghibli Cups, I know of two which have sold recently above £35k, the majority are LHD and very rarely up for sale.
Hope this helps you out somehow.

 

[StuartW]

So Ghibli Cups seems to be on the rise then Richard? Not before time, they're a lovely car and definitely one to hang onto & treasure

 

[Guv]

Thanks for the reply Dicky. Some great advice and lovely looking Shamal.

I also see by your profile that you run richardgracecars, any chance you could help me to source a decent Ghibli?

I was always thinking of getting an independent inspection done anyway as I don't think it's a wise idea to purchase a car of this sort without one. The running costs don't sound too bad but the purchase price for both the GT and the Cup definitely seem to be on the rise as they are up about £5k on what I was seeing from previous cars sold last year but then all the decent modern classics seem to be going the same way for some reason. I'm not sure if I'd want to stretch to a Cup at the price but you never know, I think this might just end up being my mid-life crisis car so I may push the boat out! The problem is at that sort of price you are also in Shamal territory as I've seen one up for £32k recently so Shamal or Cup, that's a real dilemma!

Not really considered a LHD car for obvious reasons but I keep hearing that they are OK once you get used to them and most of the decent cars from this era seem to be LHD anyway. I have a couple of very good Italian friends who may be able to help me look for a car over there. I am assuming since they are made there they'll be more plentiful so more chance of finding a decent one? Can anyone recommend any good sites to check for overseas cars?

Would still prefer a RHD but with cars like this I guess you have to keep your options open. Ideally I'd like to see or sit in one or two to see if I even like them before pursuing any further though. Do the forum members do any regular meets that I could pop along too?

Thanks for all any\all advice once again.

 

[dickygrace]

Guv, strangely Italy isn't the best place to be looking for them, mobile.de is a pretty good place to start but they'll nearly all be Lhd, Enrico's site for which I posted the link earlier is also a good place. One thing to be very wary of is trying to assess car's values from others advertised etc. When it come to 20 year old modern classics, a good one could be worth 3-4 times the value of a complete nail. Where did you see a £32k RHD Shamal? Was it ones of the ones I sold which were both Lhd? Don't think there's likely to be a good RHD Shamal for less than £40k really. I can try and help you find one, so if you wouldn't mind firing me an email over to info@richardgracecars.co.uk, I'll be able to let you know of anything which may be of interest. I would have thought Ewan and Dicky B and a couple of other experts on this era of cars will be along to add their two penneth soon too.

 

[Guv]

Weird that Italy isn't the right place to look for them, they were made there weren't they??

Yes I think you are right, the Shamal for £32k was on your website and it was LHD. I've seen one RHD one on an auction site with a guide price of £35-40k so that looks about the going rate for RHD Shamal's which is probably a bit rich for me. Thanks for the suggestion on mobile.de. I've had a look at decent cars seem to be going for about the 20k euro mark. There is a LHD Cup on there for just under 30k euros but it's got lunar miles on it and I prefer a slightly fresher car so I'll keep looking for now. I guess this could take me quite a while to find the right car!

Email sent Dickygrace.

Please keep the advice and any car recommendations coming as I want to gather as much knowledge as I can. I'm still a bit nervous about plunging my hard earned into a 20 year old Italian car, rightly or wrongly they have a reputation for all the wrong reasons! I've had my fair share of highs and lows with performance car ownership and I'd rather like to ensure that my first foray into the Italian sector is a pleasant experience

 

[allandwf]

http://www.autoscout24.eu/

This is where I window shop from time to time. Might help.

 

[Guv]

Checked both mobile.de and autoscout24, both excellent sites and I must say they have some stunning looking cars on the continent although for some reason they seem to use the Ghibli and Biturbo name interchangeably so you often find Ghibli's listed as Biturbo's which was a bit confusing at first! Only problem is obviously it's a bit difficult to "pop over" and check out cars over there and not sure if I'd be confident enough to buy a Ghibli unseen.

Also what's the process of importing something from Europe? I'm sort of familiar with the Japanese process but I assume it's a bit different. I assume we don't have to pay any additional duty\vat being one big happy European family?

 

[Ewan]

In RHD the Cup was the only car that came with the 2.0 litre engine. The standard UK RHD Ghiblis had a 2.8 litre lump. I have a list of all the UK Cups and their owners, and none are currently for sale. Theoretically a high mileage Cup needing a bit of work might be around the £25k mark. For a low mileage and more concourse version you'd be looking around the £40k area. There are 22 RHD Cups in the UK, with on recent averages, about 1 car coming up for sale every 18 months or so.

My advice would be to look for a late model car (called the GT), as the build quality is better than on the early ones. But of course, it depends on your budget. You should be able to buy a nice early car for around £10k, while a later GT will probably be over £15k. But don't expect it to be an easy search. Maybe one good car per year crops up.

The Shamal is even more rare and expensive They only sold 7 RHD cars to the UK. I'm not sure if all 7 still exist, but presume so. You'll not be able to buy a RHD for less than £40k, that's for certain. There was a black one for sale last year at £70k, but its gone now. I bought the only blue one, and that was up at £50k.

Opting for a LHD car opens up a much bigger market. About 15 years ago I ran a LHD Ghibli with the lhd-only 2.0 litre engine giving 306 bhp. It was my daily car, and I covered about 50,000 during my two years of ownership. It cost me quite a lot when I first bought it as it needed a big engine-out service, but after that it was fine, and perfectly reliable. I bought it from Maserati parts supplier David Askew, who had sourced it in (and driven it back from) Italy.

But make no mistake, they are quirky, and the driving position is not suited to all body shapes/sizes. Do sit in and drive one (or more) before committing!

 

[dickygrace]

Checked both mobile.de and autoscout24, both excellent sites and I must say they have some stunning looking cars on the continent although for some reason they seem to use the Ghibli and Biturbo name interchangeably so you often find Ghibli's listed as Biturbo's which was a bit confusing at first! Only problem is obviously it's a bit difficult to "pop over" and check out cars over there and not sure if I'd be confident enough to buy a Ghibli unseen.

Also what's the process of importing something from Europe? I'm sort of familiar with the Japanese process but I assume it's a bit different. I assume we don't have to pay any additional duty\vat being one big happy European family?

It'll cost £55 to register it and you must also tax it which is only £230 per year so £285 all in.

 

[Guv]

Thanks Ewan, very useful info. So RHD cars seem to be like hens teeth. Looks like Shamal prices are a bit too rich for me but I'd still consider a Cup if the right car came along I think but it looks like I may be waiting a while. I understand people get on fine with LHD but I am still not 100% convinced, I think I'd have to try one. I've driven LHD on the continent and get on fine but it's a slightly different proposition over here. Also thanks for the tip on driving position, I hadn't even considered that. Do they suffer from the usual offset driving position that most Italian cars of that era seem to suffer from?

So for European cars, drive it back over, register it with the DVLA and tax it. Seems simple enough and a lot less convoluted than the Japanese SVA route.

I guess I need to go and see some physical cars now to see if I get on with it but there aren't exactly loads sitting on the forecourts. Are there any meets planned in the London area at some point in the new year that I could pop along to?

 

[dickyb]

Welcome Guv

I think most of the your questions have been covered now but you might find the following info useful.

As previously mentioned, RHD Ghiblis are quite rare, only around 170 were produced. These cars were produced not only for the UK but also for Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Africa, Cyprus and perhaps a couple of other countries. Although Japan drive on the left, almost all Ghiblis exported there were LHD as the Japanese seem to prefer their foreign cars in their original LHD format. If you do find a car in the UK there is a good chance that someone on here will know it and will be able to give you an idea of whether its worth investigation, beware there are one or two bad ones out there.

As Ewan says, a vast majority of non-Cup cars had the 2.8 litre engine although there were a few 2 litre cars produced in RHD, I know of around 7 cars most of which are in Thailand and Singapore. I also know of a blue 2 litre RHD car in the UK, reg number is S874 TTG but I'm not sure of its whereabouts these days.

Rust can be an issue, I won't go into huge detail now as we'll end up with a novel but if you do find a car you are interested in we can give you more specific information on where to look for corrosion. Later cars tend to be better built and slightly more rust resistant but don't rule out an earlier car if you find one that looks sound.

Running costs are not too horrendous as long as the car has been looked after and kept up to date with all the servicing requirements. The biggest bill you are likely to see is the cam chain service, Maserati recommend changing them every 48000 miles and at a main dealer this is an engine out job for which they will relieve you of around £4000. Those in the know will suggest that the chains merely need checking regularly and only need changing if they become noisy and in practice they often last 60000 miles or more. A specialist will charge you around £2000 to change the chains as most of them can now do the job without removing the engine. The timing belt needs changing every 24000 miles but its relatively easy and inexpensive at around £400 although you may need to factor in a replacement water pump at around £250. Brakes can be expensive, front discs are around £400 and pads around £100. The electronic shock absorbers can be pricey if they are faulty, in some cases they can be rebuilt but if required, replacements are around £500 each. I can give you more details of how to check them when you find a suitable car. Other than these costs, routine servicing and running costs are not too bad, probably no more expensive than a BMW.

Parts supply is generally ok, most service parts are easily obtainable and quite a lot of parts are interchangeable with earlier Biturbos so used parts can be found. The supply of new replacement body panels is almost non-existent and be wary of anything with damaged headlamps (its fairly common for them to be cracked), they are very difficult to find and can cost anywhere between £600 and £1000 (each!), don't worry if you're looking at a LHD car, you won't need new lights, they can be converted to RHD spec for around £160 for the pair.

As Ewan says, these cars are quite quirky and they don't suit everyone. The seating position is fairly typically Italian, LHD is slightly better than RHD. You may also find the clutch very heavy, particularly in traffic.

Don't let any of the above put you off, they are fantastic cars, generally very reliable and very quick even by today's standards.

As the others have mentioned, looking in Europe will give you a lot more choice, Dicky G mentions Germany is a good source of nice cars and you may also wish to consider Switzerland as there are some lovely cars there and they tend to really look after their cars there. Try www.autoscout24.ch. The only disadvantage to this is that Switzerland aren't in the EU so import costs will be higher than the rest of Europe. LHD in the UK really is no problem at all, other than toll booths

I hope that's of some use, if you find a suitable car I'm sure we can all provide you with more details on specific areas of the car to check.

 

[Alfaduden]

Guv, We're in the same boat I see.
I made contact with a couple of sellers in Italy. Going down in January to have a look at two-tree Ghibli GTs. I advice you to try sitting position before you commit to buy. For me having no troubles as i'm not too big in any direction I have always driven Alfa Romeo and Fiat, witch help a lot. My two first cars were AR 75 that have almost the same sitting position as a Ghibli.

Later cars from 1995 are the best. Not all are GT even tho it's listed as one. Make sure to get to know a GT!!! There are a lot of differences.

-Magnus, Norway

 

[Guv]

Thanks chaps, some great advice. Running costs don't sound too horrendous and it will be a second car so won't be putting that many miles on it. I am quite keen on the 2 litre engine as that's one of the reasons why I've gone off modern cars. To easy to drive, too much low down torque and then not a lot of fizz at the top end so the smaller engine sounds like the kind of thing I'm after. They also sound fantastic! I guess I have try to find a physical car now to see if I actually like it\get on with the driving position. Still keaner on a RHD car but I guess I may be waiting a while for a decent one of those.

 

[Alfaduden]

Found this today, but it's already sold
http://www.autoscout24.se/Details.aspx?id=250285127&cd=635468048380000000&asrc=st

 

[dickyb]

Found this today, but it's already sold
http://www.autoscout24.se/Details.aspx?id=250285127&cd=635468048380000000&asrc=st

That one has been for sale for about 18 months, good luck with the other cars you're looking at.

Guv, the only realistic way you're going to get a 2 litre RHD car is to buy a Cup so you'll need to either wait for one to come up for sale, or settle for a 2.8. You'll need to be patient as RHD cars of all versions don't come up for sale very often.

 

[Guv]

Thanks dickyb, I am realising that now. Really didn't realise how rare they were before and I am surprised given that rarity that prices aren't higher (Not that I'm doing any favours for myself by talking up the prices). I'm not in a huge hurry so will wait for a few months to see if anything decent in RHD comes up. If not I guess I'll have to start looking abroad for LHD cars. I have a driving trip planned through France and Italy in the spring so that might just need to encompass some detours to see a few cars (just need to find a good excuse for SWMBO as to why we are taking a 300 mile detour )

 

[Alfaduden]

I have now been able to track down 4-5 cars all in the same area in Italy. (if the radius is big enough ) One are very attractive to me and the rest are just to compare that car with...

 

[Guv]

Alfaduden, how are you finding these cars in Italy? Is it through the previous sites mentioned above? I am planning a trip there in the new year so wouldn't mind lining up a few to go and see.

 

[dickyb]

There are a lot of cars in Italy on www.autoscout24.com and you could also try www.subito.it. France can also be a source of nice cars, might be worth contacting Garage du Trident as they often have cars for sale: www.garagedutrident.com.

Here's one to get you started:

http://www.subito.it/auto/maserati-ghibli-gt-1998-rimini-83899172.htm

This is a very late car, the factory was closed for refurbishment when Maserati were taken over by Ferrari. When production re-started a further 250 Ghiblis were made before they were replaced by the 3200 GT. You can tell that this is one of the last 250 by the high level brake light at the top of the rear screen, earlier cars had them on the rear parcel shelf.