3200 Taste Police - Opinion Needed!

Sniffer

New Member
Messages
37
Stainless wheel bolts?? Obviously no engineers on here. Wheel bolts will be made of a HT steel - Stainless is very brittle and has a low shear strength. Rule 1 of automotive engineering is to never use stainless for any stressed component.
 

Sniffer

New Member
Messages
37
Nick, I only see reference to Stainless Steel. One of my clients is in the Aerospace fastner business - they produce fastners in low-alloy steels to ultra high performance nickel and cobalt-based superalloys or titanium alloys, or aluminium. Stainless is for show, not structure.
 

NickP

Member
Messages
1,623
Hmmmm good points, well made, I guess I am a bit of a Magpie... I assumed they'd be up to the job but its been many years since I did materials science at Uni. Hopefully someone will be along to explain what these stainless bolts are made of.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,586
Stainless wheel bolts?? Obviously no engineers on here. Wheel bolts will be made of a HT steel - Stainless is very brittle and has a low shear strength. Rule 1 of automotive engineering is to never use stainless for any stressed component.



There is an engineering grade stainless which is an approved material for wheel bolts , if its necessary i'll dig out the specs , did some research on this a little while ago , and the guys i dealt with were Cranfield university Techs , not an engineer myself but they seemed to know there onions when told what the specific purpose was , and for what car, one of the main reasons we didn't go ahead it wasn't cost effective



regards loz
 

Danny

Member
Messages
445
I had my wheels refurbished in "black chrome" which is one shade darker than the original silver. And I must say that I am very pleased with the result.

004my.jpg
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,639
Nick, I only see reference to Stainless Steel. One of my clients is in the Aerospace fastner business - they produce fastners in low-alloy steels to ultra high performance nickel and cobalt-based superalloys or titanium alloys, or aluminium. Stainless is for show, not structure.

Its a valid point Sniffer and one I took up with the engineering firm. It is indeed hi grade and they supply the motorsport industry and never had an issue. I don't think an engineering firm would supply something that was dangerous, they after all, know far more than us about materials.
 

Sniffer

New Member
Messages
37
There is a huge difference between "high grade" stainless and "hi tensile" steel.

High Tensile

Wheels studs/nuts will generally be a 10.9 hi tensile steel - 10.9 is a medium carbon steel. It is the lack of carbon in stainless steel combined with the chromium and nickel added which make it "stainless".

So the two (strength and corrosion resistance) are mutually exclusive.

10.9 is used as it strikes the best compromise in yield strength vs brittleness.

Hi grade

High grade stainless denotes its resistance to corrosiion. Watches, industrial kitchenware etc are made from 316 grade. Exhausts are made from 304 grade.


I ahve no idea what grade these wheel nuts are made from, but I can speak, as a designer of race car components and (formerly) an owner of a business supplying leading F1 teams, that whatever the bolts holding your wheels on are made of, if they are from this group buy, I would get them checked out by a metalurgist, make sure the supplier has adequate product liability and professional negligence insurance, and inform your insurance company that you have modified your vehicle.


Also, even if you are re-chroming the existing Maserati OEM bolts, make sure the plater de-embrittles them (place in a very hot industrial oven overnight), as failure to do this will also cause the material to go brittle.
 

Sniffer

New Member
Messages
37
Danny, I like your car. Same as mine. I too went for a very subtly darker silver. in the end. All sahll be revealed on Friday. Inlet manifold and coil covers also being treated to the same treatment but are being chemically stripped - no blasting the inlet manifold (just in case of any failure to get 100% of the grit out.)
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
There is a huge difference between "high grade" stainless and "hi tensile" steel.

High Tensile

Wheels studs/nuts will generally be a 10.9 hi tensile steel - 10.9 is a medium carbon steel. It is the lack of carbon in stainless steel combined with the chromium and nickel added which make it "stainless".

So the two (strength and corrosion resistance) are mutually exclusive.

10.9 is used as it strikes the best compromise in yield strength vs brittleness.

Hi grade

High grade stainless denotes its resistance to corrosiion. Watches, industrial kitchenware etc are made from 316 grade. Exhausts are made from 304 grade.


I ahve no idea what grade these wheel nuts are made from, but I can speak, as a designer of race car components and (formerly) an owner of a business supplying leading F1 teams, that whatever the bolts holding your wheels on are made of, if they are from this group buy, I would get them checked out by a metalurgist, make sure the supplier has adequate product liability and professional negligence insurance, and inform your insurance company that you have modified your vehicle.


Also, even if you are re-chroming the existing Maserati OEM bolts, make sure the plater de-embrittles them (place in a very hot industrial oven overnight), as failure to do this will also cause the material to go brittle.

Thanks for this information Sniffer, particularly in relation to re-plating the OEM bolts. Can you quantify the loss of tensile strength if the newly chromed bolts aren't baked?
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,639
Sniffer, I have emailed Sprogs, the supplier of these bolts and he will reply accordingly as what you are suggesting is above my head.
 

Sprogs

New Member
Messages
11
Hi, in reply to the above threads, we DO NOT make our wheel bolts out of substandard stainless steel we only use custom 630 which if you look up the specs once it has been heatreated properly is very strong and very tough unlike some inferior stainless steels which will become brittle.This spec stainless gets used for turbine blades , boat propellers engine parts , high strength shafts etc.
we do and have made wheel spindles for british superbike teams out of this material and never had a failure, they kick out in the region of 210 bhp at the rear wheel and thats on one of our spindles and nuts !.
so with 5 on each corner they are more than strong enough!
I would be more worried about having the originals re-chromed as per the above threads :-(
 

Parisien

Moderator
Messages
34,927
Again Sprogs/Sniffer, thanks for this info re chroming of the bolts....am sure I have the email address of the guy whose done the forum bolts somewhere will ask the question.

Also, is the debrittling of OEM bolts something you'd expect to be done as standard ( ie the minimum service to be carried out doing a chroming) or only if you asked?


P
 

Sniffer

New Member
Messages
37
Sprogs, There is no denial 630 is quite a high spec martensitic stainless steel. As with most stainless steel fasteners, galling/cold welding of the threads could be problematic (like you will find it hard to undo the bolts later) although the fact that the hub is a diissimilar material goes along away. Designing threaded parts you have to consider not the strongest material to use. The success of a bolt is the amount of pre-load to 'stretch' it when tightening compared with the load that it has to hold. With a high UTS steel, you may not 'stretch' the bolt sufficiently and the joint will undo itself. Don't want that for wheel nuts! And then to achieve the pre-load you may find you have to torque upto ridiculous values that may damage the hub thread. Given the load is not constant but more oscillating, shear and tensile all at the same time I still say its better to put up with the rusting chrome.


It's going to be really very hard to design a bolt that's as good as a conventional 8.8 bolt. How did you verify that your custom design meets its design requirement? An obvious drawback is that a machined thread will never be as strong as a cold rolled thread. A good read on this subject is Carroll Smith's excellent book on nuts and bolts. Its far more scientific than any layman would ever imagine.

Also you calcs are a bit simplistic. 210hp from a bike engine is not a good basis for comparison. There is of course no such thing as BHP, it is merely and expression of torque at a given speed. (see http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/power_and_torque.htm for an explanation)

Now a 210bhp will produce less than 100ft/lbs of torque in all likelyhood given the high rpm at which the max power is generated. (Exactly why an F355 produces so much less torque than a 4200GT). It is torque which becomes the baseline of the oscillating, shear and tensile stresses, as well as the weight of the vehicle and the suspension loads introduced.

A race bike with rider probably weighs in at less than 250kgs. So the load pwe wheel is 125kgs. On a 3200GT at GVW this is going to be around 4 x that figure.

The torque of the 3200GT is 5+ times that of the bike. So drive induced loads could well be 5 x that of the bike. Given the car has an LSD, we have to assume all the torque can be directed to one wheel.

So the car has 5 wheel bolts vs the bikes one.

I would not mind betting the bike bolts is of larger CSA, so it can take more load.

So the bottom line is that the bike bolt has to deal with less than 20% of the load, its probably thicker. Race bikes (and their components) are built/lifed to last one race only.

Parisien, in answer to your question, hydrogen embrittlement of the studs occurs during plating for corrosion protection. Most studs are black steel for this reason, but will rust. Improper plating can take the temper out of steel. Have a read of this: http://www.fera.org.uk/pdf/Fera activity listing - hydrogen - march 06.pdf

The jury is out on whether de-embrittlement can be successful if performed any significant time after the plating. Electroplaters will more than likely not de-embrittle unless you specifically request.
 

Sprogs

New Member
Messages
11
Sniffer,
I am not going to get into a argument with you about the bolts we make( in our spare time i might hasten to add!) as during the considerable time we have been manufacturing them not only for maserati`s , we have never had a single failure or a complaint.
our quality is second to none and i personally would rather have a precision machined wheel nut rather than one which is rusting which as you know causes its own problems with regard to strength etc.
who is to say that maserati are using the correct steel etc as i don`t see other manufacturers wheel bolts rusting as bad?
perhaps you can advise them.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,586
Sprogs, There is no denial 630 is quite a high spec martensitic stainless steel. As with most stainless steel fasteners, galling/cold welding of the threads could be problematic (like you will find it hard to undo the bolts later) although the fact that the hub is a diissimilar material goes along away. Designing threaded parts you have to consider not the strongest material to use. The success of a bolt is the amount of pre-load to 'stretch' it when tightening compared with the load that it has to hold. With a high UTS steel, you may not 'stretch' the bolt sufficiently and the joint will undo itself. Don't want that for wheel nuts! And then to achieve the pre-load you may find you have to torque upto ridiculous values that may damage the hub thread. Given the load is not constant but more oscillating, shear and tensile all at the same time I still say its better to put up with the rusting chrome.


It's going to be really very hard to design a bolt that's as good as a conventional 8.8 bolt. How did you verify that your custom design meets its design requirement? An obvious drawback is that a machined thread will never be as strong as a cold rolled thread. A good read on this subject is Carroll Smith's excellent book on nuts and bolts. Its far more scientific than any layman would ever imagine.

Also you calcs are a bit simplistic. 210hp from a bike engine is not a good basis for comparison. There is of course no such thing as BHP, it is merely and expression of torque at a given speed. (see http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/power_and_torque.htm for an explanation)

Now a 210bhp will produce less than 100ft/lbs of torque in all likelyhood given the high rpm at which the max power is generated. (Exactly why an F355 produces so much less torque than a 4200GT). It is torque which becomes the baseline of the oscillating, shear and tensile stresses, as well as the weight of the vehicle and the suspension loads introduced.

A race bike with rider probably weighs in at less than 250kgs. So the load pwe wheel is 125kgs. On a 3200GT at GVW this is going to be around 4 x that figure.

The torque of the 3200GT is 5+ times that of the bike. So drive induced loads could well be 5 x that of the bike. Given the car has an LSD, we have to assume all the torque can be directed to one wheel.

So the car has 5 wheel bolts vs the bikes one.

I would not mind betting the bike bolts is of larger CSA, so it can take more load.

So the bottom line is that the bike bolt has to deal with less than 20% of the load, its probably thicker. Race bikes (and their components) are built/lifed to last one race only.

Parisien, in answer to your question, hydrogen embrittlement of the studs occurs during plating for corrosion protection. Most studs are black steel for this reason, but will rust. Improper plating can take the temper out of steel. Have a read of this: http://www.fera.org.uk/pdf/Fera activity listing - hydrogen - march 06.pdf

The jury is out on whether de-embrittlement can be successful if performed any significant time after the plating. Electroplaters will more than likely not de-embrittle unless you specifically request.

Ever used or gone under the name of V Bird by anychance :tongue: there' is a reason why i ask :laughing:


regards loz