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Nail on head.
Are you worried yet.
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Nail on head.
dgmx5
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Might if it was streamed on YouTube. SM Big Brother channel.
But there are some points to consider arising from the data Wattie posted and how statistics have been used generally in this pandemic to shape policy and to justify use of executive power without proper parliamentary scrutiny.
Why is the data broken down by every 20 years?
A 60 year old person is a different proposition to a 79 year old person. A breakdown by every 5 years might reveal a more nuanced position.
Why are children 0-19? For deaths, as thankfully there are few, this is not so important, but for cases it may prove or dispel 'myths' around where spread is occuring. Why not 0-3, pre-school, primary school and secondary school?
In Kent, the existence of a grammar school system promotes 11-18 children travelling between towns on public transport whereas primary school children generally remain in the town that they live.
Why have 20-39 when much more relevant might be 18-21 in further education settings versus 18-21 in the workplace and then 22-29 and 30-39?
Spain will reportedly keep a list of non-vaccinators and provide to all other EU countries. Are you comfortable with that approach here? Some countries already require declaration of vaccination to enter a country; is this the same, or a step too far?
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It’s funny, isn’t it. Maybe 7 or 8 months ago the talk was of stockpiling food, buying safes to keep it in, hiding out from the zombie apocalypse. Now we’re comfortable enough to find the energy to be suspicious of data and of those who purport to help.
Hedonic adaptation, bruv.
Hedonic adaptation, bruv.
Zep
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This, I completely agree with. There does seem to be a predication on the part of the government to share the details in a pretty basic form. I imagine this is because they want to use it to justify some of the more interesting choices, like the ones you mention or because they think the message might get lost in the detail.
Regarding a requirement for vaccination when traveling, I am pretty comfortable with it, as I wouldn’t be happy doing so without the comfort of knowing I have at least some protection. I would hope it would be a temporary thing, but it may not be.
We have seen some countries take some extreme measures in regard to border control and lockdowns, and had some petty startling results. We have taken a different path, and some of the measures are, I agree, are politically rather than public health led.
There is a nuanced discussion to be had around the data, how it is presented and used, that doesn’t need to be the binary choice of lockdown / no lockdown.
A car forum is unlikely to shape policy, but as most people are taking a more or less flexible approach to the rules, it is interesting to think and talk about what we can and can’t do to minimise the overall risk.
Silvercat
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Well catching Covid is not just about death rates, it's also about the lasting effects
(Long Covid) of it and the impact it is having on peoples lives. A mate of mine in his 50's (with no comorbidities) had Covid earlier this year and was very seriously ill from it. He is still 'plagued' today by the consequences of having caught the desiese and just cant shake it off. It's pretty debilitating stuff if your body reacts to it badly, let alone life threatening. So I hear all the various arguments around how we could do this differently but there has to be a point in time when we just have to trust the judgement of those who are the experts and probably better informed than any of us are. That's where my head is anyway, although I recognise the acute frustration with this seemingly never ending issue. So I think we go with it and hold the 'defensive lines' until the vaccine comes riding over the hill.
Zep
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dgmx5
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That's the problem "those who purport to help".
Personally, I do not feel that they do nor are they interested in doing so beyond protecting their legacy, their own position or their competitive advantage. In a year where many have already lost terribly, and where faced with a tsunami of debt many will continue to be faced with little hope of pay rises but the possibility of a greater tax burden or in other words another decade of austerity, there will be a much smaller number of people who will have done very well out of this and they will have received help from those within public office.
My wife, who until she met me had little to no interest in politics, is shocked by the conduct of the current government.
I don't trust this lot and I take the steps I feel I need to to keep myself, my family and others safe. That erosion of trust has been a long time coming and happens every time a politician lies or misleads; see Theresa May and the immigrant cat for an example. Great grandstanding to the Tory faithful, but it is important to tell the truth. Societies that can accept the truth are better for it.
As a life-long, left-of-centre liberal I am conscious of my bias, but I do maintain that democracies get the government they deserve.
In 2010, we had a coalition government. In 2015, the people outraged by the coalition government's policies punished those responsible, the Lib Dems, a minority partner with little influence beyond acting as a brake on the more egregious policies. Since then, we have drifted ever more to a right wing, populist government that even some within the Conservative Party consider to be an affront to Conservatism. The risk for Tories is that you push too far and then comes an almighty reaction against it.
By the time of the last election, maybe this was the best government to deliver Brexit. Whether that is the best government to get a good deal only time will tell.
Whether this was the best government to deal with a global pandemic is a different question, and not one in the forefront of people's minds in 2019.
And if your riposte is simply that the other guy would have done a worse job, you may be right.
But if you do not feel we should expect better, or that we should not scrutinise those currently in public office, then I feel that is a sad state of affairs.
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Zep
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Yes, but much, much easier to organise!
Phil H
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Excellent fellow. That gives you time to get organised. Now:I’ve checked my diary. I can sort this for June. 2022.
Level 1 Project Plan
Objectives, Milestones, Budget, Key Actors, Risks & Mitigations.
Level 2
Nomination of specialist forum advisers (suggestions most welcome)
Summary of our demands
Sanctions advocated if demands are not met
Timescales & Muster Points (strictly confidential of course)
Media coverage
AOB
Off you go Zep.
allandwf
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We will never agree, surely an extension on June 2022 deadline will be required. lol
Zep
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rockits
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Great set of posts there David. I agree with with breakdowns as they should be more targeted and useful. The current ones are not and defy logic. I also agree with pretty much all your other points.
Also I do feel we should be right to questions decisions of public institutions and staff as that is what they are. The public fund and support their existence so we are entitled to correct dataalsk good independent decision making. Also we are entitled to want, demand an expect the very best. Set your goals and aspirations high allowing some movement south if things don't go as planned and you have still done quite well. I feel we have come to accept reduced levels of achievement and also to reward failure by either actually rewarding it on not punishing it. We seem afraid to question it or address it. If there is no responsibility for failure or poor performance then we can expect no more than what we currently receive.
Also I do feel we should be right to questions decisions of public institutions and staff as that is what they are. The public fund and support their existence so we are entitled to correct dataalsk good independent decision making. Also we are entitled to want, demand an expect the very best. Set your goals and aspirations high allowing some movement south if things don't go as planned and you have still done quite well. I feel we have come to accept reduced levels of achievement and also to reward failure by either actually rewarding it on not punishing it. We seem afraid to question it or address it. If there is no responsibility for failure or poor performance then we can expect no more than what we currently receive.
RobinL
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I actually enjoy reading all the posts, agreed some start to get 'personal' but to be expected. Covid, it's avoidance, and it's treatment/demise are subjects we all have opinions on, and as to be expected with reasoning, literate adults there will be different opinions.
So,
I suspect that's pretty much true for everyone here.
Governments ability to deal with Covid objectively seems to be diminished day by day.
Governments ability to self police (audit) its own performance and reasoning is just not up to the job. Too biased, too slow, too cumbersome
Governments desire to drop cronyism, nepotism etc hasn't improved any.
(Note: I use the term Government to mean All Parties)
Media has lost sight of reporting facts and news and now considers that they should actually 'make' the news to sell column inches/clicks/hits/likes whatever it takes!
If you beat up the statistics (and statisticians) long enough and hard enough they will tell you exactly what you want. ??
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
So,
- I reserve the right to have an opinion and
- I remain open to discussion that may provide other perspectives and allow me to change that opinion if need be.
I suspect that's pretty much true for everyone here.
Governments ability to deal with Covid objectively seems to be diminished day by day.
Governments ability to self police (audit) its own performance and reasoning is just not up to the job. Too biased, too slow, too cumbersome
Governments desire to drop cronyism, nepotism etc hasn't improved any.
(Note: I use the term Government to mean All Parties)
Media has lost sight of reporting facts and news and now considers that they should actually 'make' the news to sell column inches/clicks/hits/likes whatever it takes!
If you beat up the statistics (and statisticians) long enough and hard enough they will tell you exactly what you want. ??
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
2b1ask1
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Having been notified this morning of a second near miss or indirect contact with people who have tested positive in the last week, I've just been for a test, super efficient, I pulled up in the car park, no pre-appointment required, bag dropped on the front seat, took longer to read and understand the instructions on how to self-torture your airways than the test itself, drive back out, baggie is collected with grabs off the front seat and I was away within 90 seconds I recon! All registered now and await the results....
Seems HM Gov' have been watching how the drug deals go down these days with minimal contact!
We shall see!
Seems HM Gov' have been watching how the drug deals go down these days with minimal contact!
We shall see!
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Did you have to phone a bloke named Dave and then wait by the phone box on the corner until he turned up in a beaten up old Honda?
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