Brexit!

[P5Nij]

now this is where it gets silly. USA with out Texas you are on a completely different path. In the USA they vote for there president. The men in Brussels they decide between themselves who in charge. Then go along making up silly rules for the rest of us to obey. And we can't vote them out. That's not a democracy it's dictatorship. And how can you not mention imagination we are a country that's full to the brim. Just try and get to work at 5-30 am heading to London. Then take a look at our school class rooms and the hospitals. The infrastructure can not cope. And don't give it right wing I grew up on a council estate. I could go on and on

^^^This!^^^

We give something like £45m a day to keep the EU gravy train rolling and what do we actually get in return? Nothing of any use to us whatsoever.

 

[TridentTested]

It's alarming how right wing this forum is - look after number one seems to be the mantra.

I'm in the stay-in camp at the moment but if somebody could explain why we should vote no without scaremongering about ISIS invasions, Immigration meltdown and straight bananas I'd at least have a reason to vote.
USA without Texas would just be a bit odd, which is my starting point for Europe and the EU.

Yup, reading this thread, it seems like the only reason for leaving is anger at the late Edward Heath "conning" us into joining a Common Market which has subsequently morphed into a European Union. People seem to want to leave just to get back at Heath. Any arguments that we, in our generation, didn't get the vote on this matter are equally specious; I never voted on the Act of Union 1707, which we've lived with ever since.

The fear of ISIS coming over in droves are just too silly to discuss. How would being out of the EU change our ability, or otherwise, to stop ISIS at our borders? The fact that the 7/7 bombers were born and bread and buttered in the UK also seems to be conveniently ignored.

The example of Norway is usually trotted out by people who think everything will be rosy outside of the Union. Firstly Norway has benefitted from a left-wing socialised model of husbandry which has used its considerable oil wealth to create a national investment fund, rather than our right wing governments (I count Labour too) who spunked our equivalent North Sea oil revenue on foreign wars and lining their friends' pockets. Norway thus finds itself very wealthy and would be in a good place regardless of its views on the EU.

Secondly, Norway continually debates whether they should join or not. They find being outside very burdensome because in order to trade with the EU they have to comply with all EU law and norms - but they have no say on framing those rules. Eventually they will join, because they need to have some leverage.

The idea that the governance in Brussels is any worse than in Westminster is ludicrous. One only needs to look at the HS2 fiasco where 82% of the electorate don't want it but it was conceived by our unelected Lord Adonis and his mates, our elected betters, are ramming it through anyway mainly because Osbourne's father-in-law stands to make an obscene amount of money. One of countless examples.

The idea of the EU was actually created by Winston Churchill whom no one could ever accuse of being anything less than a loyal subject of the Crown, a true conservative, and a proud Englishman. He saw the purpose to it, that purpose still stands.

 

[wink]

Well I'll be voting to stay in the EU, and here are some reasons why:
1. Most of my friends work for multinational corporations who have their European headquarters here in the UK. I can't see those companies keeping their European operations based in a non-EU England. And it would probably be England, not the UK any more, because the Scots would vote to leave the UK so that they could stay in the EU, and they'd take their North Sea oil too.
2. I don't buy the line that all our troubles are caused by Europe. The EU is a convenient scapegoat, but actually many of our daily problems are home-grown. Nanny-statism, absurdly over-cautious 'Health & Safety' rules, unfathomable tax credits, massive City banker bungs? All born & bred in England.
3. The 'Norwegian model' is an illusion. Even those dangerous lefty europhiles at the Telegraph had this to say:
"The so-called “Norway” model – leave the EU but remain part of the European Economic Area – would incur 94 per cent of the same costs, but without any voting power to advance reform. Last week, meanwhile, the same think tank noted that leaving the EU and exposing UK business to the imposition of Continental tariffs would prove particularly damaging to our vital financial services industry."
And have you ever ordered a beer in Norway? Budget £10 a pop. Yes, Norway is a fabulously expensive country, with far higher taxes than the UK. After a year of the Norwegian experience the Brits would be begging to be let back into the good old cheap EU.
4. I don't care for nationalism. It's caused nothing but suffering, whether its the Germans fighting the French, the Bosnians v the Serbs, the Palestinians v the Israelis or any other conflict. I want to be part of a wider Europe, I really value being able to work, travel and live freely anywhere in the EU. My work colleagues in other European countries are genuinely perplexed by the Brit attitude of whingeing from the sidelines - they ask 'why don't you want to work together with everyone else?'
5. Things won't all be tickety-boo if we pull up the drawbridge and keep Johnny Foreigner out. Do you really want to go back to eating Spam sandwiches, drinking mild ale & measuring stuff in chains and furlongs? And of course you'll have to swap the Maser for a rickety old Austin-Healey when they slap import charges on those foreign spare parts.

 

[jluis]

^^^This!^^^

We give something like £45m a day to keep the EU gravy train rolling and what do we actually get in return? Nothing of any use to us whatsoever.

Duty free access to a market of over 400 million people hardly counts as nothing.

Besides, if Britain does leave the EU, those Brussels bureaucrats will make your life miserable to serve as an example of what happens when a country opts out.

Just look at what was and is being done to Greece.

I agree the euro is a dumb idea but you fortunately don't have that problem.

 

[allandwf]

"I agree the euro is a dumb idea but you fortunately don't have that problem". Why don't we? Every other member does don't they?

 

[highlander]

Having re-read the thread, I think we are all saying basically the same thing at least at one level, that we have at least "one too many" governments so let's get rid of one!!!

 

[mchristyuk]

Having re-read the thread, I think we are all saying basically the same thing at least at one level, that we have at least "one too many" governments so let's get rid of one!!!

This in a nutshell.

My choice is to get rid of the unelected one. There's no way they will impose any trade barriers as we are too big a market for too many large German companies.

 

[NickP]

The only country that the EU suits is the Germans, without the Euro devaluing their currency to such an extent they would never have been able to export any cars as they would be far too expensive.

I think this was mentioned already, but the Greeks, they can't even get out of the mess they are in, their children will suffer for at least a generation. They are being dictated to, not by the government they elected but by Merkel.

Add to this the invitation for the third world to come and live in Germany, no Germans asked for this and now they are seeing the benefits of cultural diversity, rapes and attacks on women have soared. Soon as these ppl have a passport they can go anywhere in the EU they want. They never contributed, they are going to cost billions, there are no schools, houses, hospitals or anything else to cater for the influx.

Thanks but I'd like to just do trade with the EU, holiday there and they can stick their socialist experiment right up their derrier.

 

[BennyD]

That sounds about right and, for once, I'm with you!

 

[Steve GS]

Yes think I might upset people if I coment much more on this subject. Politics and forums don't mix. But I work in the building industry and most people I speek to want out.. some say they don't understand and others are freeloaders and want to stay as it is

 

[daverichardson]

I have been canvassing my friends, relations, acquaintances etc and I must report the overwhelming majority would vote to leave.
Of course that does not mean much, money talks and there is a long way to go yet

 

[BJL]

Spent an evening with a German couple the other evening, he works for Mercedes in Stutgart and confirmed most Germans he knows now want out before the peasants in Europe bankrupt his country. He hates Merkel and thinks England and Germany should start their own club.............tomorrow ve vil rule ze.....................nice couple, quite liked them really.

 

[conaero]

Ok, quite a few development and I am sure we are now going to become sick to death of this until it's over.

Cameron, I think he got us a the best deal he could and for that he deserves respect but with Boris fronting up the Exit party I would say that's game over for Cameron and the EU. Boris the Baffoon is a very cleaver guy, an astute politician under a comical and loveable exterior.

I honestly see us out of the EU and Boris heading up the Tory party before the term is over, possibly even before the year is out.

So if the UK leave the EU, what ripple effect do you think that wil have on the remaining EU?

As ever, politics is a tricky subject and we are all friends on here and should respect each others opinions.

 

[mchristyuk]

If, and it is a big If, we leave the EU (however with all the papers focusing on Boris I would say the "if" is getting smaller..) I'd expect the repercussions to start in the countries which the EU currently has by the gentlemen areas.. namely Spain, Greece, Portugal...

What none of the pro-EU politicians are admitting to is that the Lisbon Treaty specifies that any country leaving the EU has to have a free trade agreement with the EU created and that the World Trade Organisation lays down the rules by which this will have to be struck. With the UK being one of the biggest export markets for Germany I would think a favourable trade agreement will be struck very quickly. Greenland left the EEC in 1985 and this is indeed what happened.

With that out the way.. if we carry on quite happily as a country (which I believe we will.. I honestly don't think we'll see any dramatic changes whether we stay or leave..) then those fringe countries will start asking some serious questions about why they're staying put.

Then you'll be left with essentially Germany, Belgium and France dealing alone with the sudden influx of Eastern European countries and trying to make a set of regulatory rules work across very different countries without common tax regimes or currencies..

So then they'll either go the whole hog and create a proper "United States of Europe" with them all governed under one parliament.. or the whole thing will come crashing down. That I guess will be determined by how the people see it in each nation.

There will be no "doomsday" though as far as I can see.. there's too many vested interests in too many places for egos to get in the way.. the scaremongering from both sides in this argument will become very tiresome very quickly in my opinion...

Mark

 

[Trev Latter]

With regard to the UK position in the EU, I think the half in/half out situation we currently have cannot be sustained. All the while we have special rules there's likely to be some resentment from the other EU countries. We either need to be fully integrated, currency and all, or out completely. I'm not sure that I'd want to be fully integrated. As Mark mentioned above, a whole hog, United States of Europe with one governing body is the only option that can realistically work long term, whether we're in or not.

In all honesty, the whole thing probably won't affect me too much whatever the outcome. I don't do any business outside of the UK and have sufficient income to keep ticking along without too many worries. I don't even do that much by way of foreign travel these days, so exchange rates etc don't enter into it. As long as I can get my milk and eggs, I'll be fine.

 

[daverichardson]

Yes, I think Cameron got the best deal he could
No, it will not be enough imho
MP's are saying the economy is the main point
I think not, I think it is immigration that will sway it - and it is not being talked about openly yet for fear of being branded racist
It will not make much odds to me and I still think we should leave and the rest of Europe will muddle along as they (we) always do.
I will speak to the younger generation (my sons) and get their views, after all the next 50 years is for them not me!

 

[jluis]

Honestly, as a non British and EU citizen the deal struck by Cameron and the EU and the UK makes me feel like a second class citizen.

Especially when it comes to benefits for working people in the UK.
If I understood the deal correctly, EU citizens in the UK will pay the full social security costs without being able to benefit from it for 4 years, where a British citizen that chooses to work elsewhere in the UK is automatically granted protection (as it should be)

As Trev said, you are either in or out and it's time to cut these ******** exception deals for country x or z.

I personally feel the Brussels has way too much power and it needs reforms. These reforms can only be had if enough countries get together and force treaty changes for thr whole of Eu.

I think you are dreaming if you think the EU will cut the UK any favorable trade treaty following an exit.
It will have no reason to do so.

France will be very keen on protecting it's economy from UK farming products and I don't think a few bmw sold by the Germans will make a big difference.

 

[conaero]

Trev I suspect most of us on here are in a similar situation where we are quite self sufficient.

I suppose we should, as fully rounded human beings, look at the effects on the younger generations.

House prices in this country are the biggest factor and there is nothing wrong with becoming a nation of renters, it's been the European way for along time.

So house pricing as we know us governed by supply and demand, which in a roundabout way comes back to the Brexit argument again, with migration only compounding this issue.

Also we do have a social responsibility to our poorer cousins and the dreadful Syrian situation.

What that is, I don't know, but we can't just bury our heads in the sand it's a truely dreadful state of affairs.

 

[NickP]

Honestly, as a non British and EU citizen the deal struck by Cameron and the EU and the UK makes me feel like a second class citizen.

Especially when it comes to benefits for working people in the UK.
If I understood the deal correctly, EU citizens in the UK will pay the full social security costs without being able to benefit from it for 4 years, where a British citizen that chooses to work elsewhere in the UK is automatically granted protection (as it should be)

As Trev said, you are either in or out and it's time to cut these ******** exception deals for country x or z.

I personally feel the Brussels has way too much power and it needs reforms. These reforms can only be had if enough countries get together and force treaty changes for thr whole of Eu.

I think you are dreaming if you think the EU will cut the UK any favorable trade treaty following an exit.
It will have no reason to do so.

France will be very keen on protecting it's economy from UK farming products and I don't think a few bmw sold by the Germans will make a big difference.

The problem is that British benefits are far too generous to begin with, this is why migrants are queuing up in Calais to get here and not staying in France which is a perfectly decent and left leaning country. The difference is that France, Germany and a host of other EU countries have contributory benefits systems, meaning if you have paid nothing in you get virtually nothing out, in the UK we give everyone the same benefits regardless of how much they have paid in. The solution would be to cut benefits for everyone rather than target EU citizens who mainly come here to work anyway.

I totally get your point about feeling that the UK is getting a good deal and feeling like a second class citizen. Germany and France will not selling us cars, wine or cheese, I think us leaving (if we are ever allowed to leave) would be a good thing and might bring about the reforms the EU needs. Sure have a common market but don't tie us all down with red tape and ridiculous policies, that is what it was designed for but it has become a huge unworkable unelected beast.

If we vote to leave we'll be asked to vote again like the Irish, the Danes, the Dutch, the French etc... all have voted No and been told to go back and have another vote until the make the right choice... I fully expect this to happen here.

 

[greeny12]

I think you are dreaming if you think the EU will cut the UK any favorable trade treaty following an exit.
It will have no reason to do so.

France will be very keen on protecting it's economy from UK farming products and I don't think a few bmw sold by the Germans will make a big difference.

Our trade balance with Germany is a negative of more than £2 billion a month. A month. That's quite a few BMWs in my book. Just sayin'

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx