Brexit!

Messages
6,001
Now we have a referendum. Does this mean UKIP will no longer exist? As they were set up to get a referendum weren't they?
If we exit from the EU, then their job is done.
Or do they morph into something more right wing? i.e. the old Tories.
As the current Tories and Labour for that matter are much the same.

Good points here
I look at the list of MP's backing Europe and think good god I do not want to be associated with him/her
Then I look at those in the no campaign and think, good god I do not want to be associated with him/her
Incidentally I asked my son his intentions (aged 34) and he will be voting to stay in, my in laws are undecided as yet.
So in my camp it is still an exit vote majority this will run and run
 

MAF260

Member
Messages
7,662
The current system needs reform whether we stay or leave. Our benefits system is too generous and unsustainable, IMO. Our foreign aid handouts are a joke when we give money to a country that can afford its own nuclear and space programmes! Immigration should only be available to those who will make a net contribution, regardless of nationality. Our economy should be controlled by us, not bureaucrats in Belgium . I'm all for helping those worse off through no fault of their own, but the PC approach of everything being available to everyone is not right. I was very glad there is a benefits scheme in place when my father in law's business went bust due to fraud (by others!) and he lost everything including his house aged 60 - he'd paid into the system for over 40 years to earn this, however - how it should be. He doesn't get much, but has a roof over his head - no more than somebody from Afghanistan, Syria or Spain is also entitled to under similar circumstances, but without any prior contribution.
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,330
Our foreign aid handouts are a joke when we give money to a country that can afford its own nuclear and space programmes

I always refer to foreign aid as foreign bribes. We give them money, they use it to buy stuff from us.

As for the rest I largely agree, as the son of an immigrant who came here in the '70s and has worked ever since (even into retirement) I am set against immigrant bashing.
 

Wack61

Member
Messages
8,815
I read about big business upping sticks and leaving if we vote out but will they actually do it, Nissan in the NE, how much would it cost them to move the factory and train a new workforce

Most European manufacturers are building cars nobody is buying , JLR however can't build them fast enough and every car driven off the production line is sold

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that TATA would be extatic if Nissan left, they could double production almost overnight if they moved in to the purpose built plant and ready trained workforce.
 
Messages
6,001
Lots of business 'leaders' are coming out in favour of the EU
As expected, money talks as in the Scottish referendum
(these are the same leaders that saw us through the economic crisis 2008 -2010- now)
To me there may be a pain barrier to go through if we left but all things are manageable if the quality of leadership is good
and there's the rub
 

Steve GS

Member
Messages
1,526
I always refer to foreign aid as foreign bribes. We give them money, they use it to buy stuff from us.

As for the rest I largely agree, as the son of an immigrant who came here in the '70s and has worked ever since (even into retirement) I am set against immigrant bashing.
I don't think it's a case of immigrant bashing. We are a small country (land wise) we don't have enough land to farm to feed the people that are already here we don't have enough school spaces and our hospitals can't cope. And you just can't do it the laubor way and throw money at it that we don't have. House prices are out of control as there is not enough of them for everyone in Europe. So tell me how do you keep accomadating more and more people.
 

Phil H

Member
Messages
4,194
OK, sleepy time.

Direct quotes from the EU audited accounts as published for 2013:

“Revenue for 2013, taken as a whole, is legal and regular.
Commitments for 2013, taken as a whole, are legal and regular."

Payments were qualified as follows:

"Payments for 2013 are materially affected by error. The ECA therefore gives an adverse opinion on their legality and regularity.”

"The accounts show that for the period of 2007-2013 the error rate of payments varied between 3.3% and 6.9% with the error rate for 2013 being 4.7%."

“The estimated error rate, which measures the level of irregularity, for 2013 payments is 4.7 %, close to that of 2012 (4.8 %) and persistently above the materiality threshold of 2 %.”

That is tech speak for failing to meet the EU's own requirements for financial probity. (Don't take my word for it, the accounts are on line.)

Now look at the following:

http://ec.europa.eu/news/2015/11/20151110_en.htm

I'm sure there's a plausible explanation for any conflict in published EU material. Maybe the answer's in the stars?

PH
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,330
So tell me how do you keep accomadating more and more people.



The U.K. is 51st of all territories for population density and the 15th most populous overall. Our population has more space per person than the Netherlands, Belgium or Israel all by some distance. The Netherlands for example has 1029 people per square mile vs Britain at 679. Singapore has an incredible 19,935 citizens per square mile (all 5.5 million of them), christ knows what that must be like. I'm not at all convinced by the "not enough space" argument. Not enough hospitals, that might well be true.

I have a lot of conversations about people coming here, taking our jobs, driving up house prices etc because I sound (and partly am) British. My point is that not all immigrants are blagging the system, some are and that must be stopped, but many (I understand the vast majority) immigrants have come here and contributed from day one, put work and money in the system. They have contributed the the diversity and culture of the country as my family has. This is my point - immigration in itself is not a bad thing.

What Mark said about the system overall is right, it is too generous. You don't need a foreign accent to take advantage of the benefit system.
 

jluis

Member
Messages
1,703
There is one thing I don't get about all this debate of immigrants and benefits.
You want the UK to leave the EU so that EU citizens are no longer allowed to stay in the UK
However, EU treaty allow any member state to deport any foreign EU citizen if he has no work or means of self support.

The French did that with gipsies from Romania and they were European citizens too
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
Yes, there is a complete misunderstanding on immigration.

If the UK leaves the EU the EU rule of seeking asylum in the first EU country of arrival will no longer apply. The UK does manage to turn away would-be immigrants because they should have applied for asylum in Italy, or wherever, first. That rule will be gone and the UK will have to fulfil its mandate under the UNHRC - this could well result in a greater number of asylum seekers.

Another fun fact is the 3 million EU-born citizens who currently live and work in the UK under the freedom of movement rules will probably have to apply for residents' permits and visas. That is going to cost one sh1t load to administer. A nice job for Serco or G4S or Atkins - but not for UK taxpayers.
 

Steve GS

Member
Messages
1,526
The U.K. is 51st of all territories for population density and the 15th most populous overall. Our population has more space per person than the Netherlands, Belgium or Israel all by some distance. The Netherlands for example has 1029 people per square mile vs Britain at 679. Singapore has an incredible 19,935 citizens per square mile (all 5.5 million of them), christ knows what that must be like. I'm not at all convinced by the "not enough space" argument. Not enough hospitals, that might well be true.

I have a lot of conversations about people coming here, taking our jobs, driving up house prices etc because I sound (and partly am) British. My point is that not all immigrants are blagging the system, some are and that must be stopped, but many (I understand the vast majority) immigrants have come here and contributed from day one, put work and money in the system. They have contributed the the diversity and culture of the country as my family has. This is my point - immigration in itself is not a bad thing.

What Mark said about the system overall is right, it is too generous. You don't need a foreign accent to take advantage of the benefit system.
They look great figures if you take in the whole of the U.K. If you want to start building houses in the highlands of Scotland or the valleys in Wales. Or the Yorkshire dales I could go on. Anyone that comes here only go to the big towns and city's. And like I said there isn't the infrastructure to cope. And no I don't think anyone should get money for nothing that are able to work. It's not about race or color.
 

drewf

Member
Messages
7,159
The U.K. is 51st of all territories for population density and the 15th most populous overall. Our population has more space per person than the Netherlands, Belgium or Israel all by some distance. The Netherlands for example has 1029 people per square mile vs Britain at 679. Singapore has an incredible 19,935 citizens per square mile (all 5.5 million of them), christ knows what that must be like. I'm not at all convinced by the "not enough space" argument. Not enough hospitals, that might well be true.

Don't get hung up on stats like that without considering the edge cases materially distort the figures. I can tell you what Singapore is like having worked there several times over the years - it's like London, but 31/32deg every day, more friendly and less crowded. There's a huge amount of the UK which is essentially uninhabitable. London, for instance...
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,330
Don't get hung up on stats like that without considering the edge cases materially distort the figures. I can tell you what Singapore is like having worked there several times over the years - it's like London, but 31/32deg every day, more friendly and less crowded. There's a huge amount of the UK which is essentially uninhabitable. London, for instance...

I agree the devil is in the detail, I stuck Singapore in to show how far we are from the extreme end of the scale. To quote a report in 2012 "The urban landscape accounts for 10.6% of England, 1.9% of Scotland, 3.6% of Northern Ireland and 4.1% of Wales". This map tells a story._61222609_uk_habits_464.jpg

As for London I think you might be right, sadly economically active people tend to go to economically active places, chief of which in the UK is London.
 

drewf

Member
Messages
7,159
Interesting map. Intrigued to see how the urban area formed by Leeds/Bradford/Manchester/Liverpool/Sheffield on this scale appears to be very similar to London. However, I know the actual population and population density is vastly lower.

As to why London attracts economically active people - it's a bugbear of mine. London in broad brush terms produces nothing but sells services very successfully indeed. Government support and investment for the London area outstrips the rest of the country by far. What's the public transport like outside London? Generally hopeless. In London? Actually it's very good indeed. Sadly the investment will continue in the south east, until the bubble bursts. I can't imagine living there, but certainly wish I owned property there!!

Will any of that change if the UK leaves the EU? I expect it will be barely noticeable to most people.

One point I'd like to make is that in general the UK appears to follow all the rules set by Brussels. France follows most of them, but has no hesitation in brazenly ignoring a rule which doesn't suit when the occasion arises. For instance, some borders have full passport checks today, between two Schengen countries. That's not allowed under the EU rules, but it does allow France to turn away undesirables.

French farmers regularly block roads - it's illegal, but allowed to continue without sanction, since they have political clout. British farmers doing the same would find themselves with a criminal record.

Benefits - could I as a resident of France, but a UK citizen claim anything? Not a chance...

Whilst it's supposedly the case that any EU citizen could work in France, the reality is very different indeed. For me to get a job in France it would mean the French hiring company would have to effectively demonstrate there are no Frenchmen available to fill the position. In theory, it could happen, but for most mainstream jobs it's not as easy as it sounds. Menial jobs paying nothing are of course available... However, in Switzerland a work permit is required, but trivial to obtain and the companies can hire whomever they wish - protectionism hasn't run riot there.

Still think that the UK is playing on the same field as the rest of the EU? Again, I doubt most people would notice much difference whichever way the vote goes.
 

m1980k

Junior Member
Messages
467
The notion that there is somehow not enough physical space for additional people in the UK is utter nonsense. What is the optimal number of people for the land mass of the UK? 20 million? 60 million? 100 million? It is possible that the country's infrastructure is not equipped to deal with additional people. But of course there's a solution to that: build more!

If you want to pull up the drawbridge and stop people entering the country, then I hope you're happy to deal with the economic consequences, like working until you're 75 and low/no economic growth for decades to come. The UK's post-financial crisis economic recovery has been largely driven by population growth. Growth in income per person has been weak, but the number of people has grown, pushing up national income (not great if you're an average Joe, but probably not bad if you're a business-owning Maserati driver). And it's no surprise that countries like Japan and Italy have been economically weak for such a long time - they have ageing populations, and wealth tends to be concentrated in the hands of older people (who don't spend it). Economies need young people and to put it bluntly: immigrants tend to be young and they like to reproduce.

Yes, I'm biased - I'm the son of an immigrant. I was pushed to work hard and achieve, not to steal from the English. I now pay enough tax in a year to offset what I'll receive in public services for many years and pay the salaries of multiple public sector workers. Do I resent that some of this money might go to benefits for immigrants? No more than I resent the fact that it will go to benefits for English people. But then I don't believe that just because someone was born in another country that they're somehow thieving parasites. If someone wants to risk their life and cross the sea from Africa on a raft, well that person is probably the kind of hard worker and risk taker you want in your country. Yes, some of them might be trouble but then I believe that there might be one or two white English people in prison - what's their excuse? And I've used Eastern European tradesmen who have been extremely hardworking, as well as English tradesmen who have been lazy, dishonest *****! How does that fit in to your view of the world?

There are two choices: let the immigrants in and manage the influx properly or prepare for a long, steady decline for the UK economy.

And as for removing a layer of government in Brussels and somehow unshackling ourselves to unleash our raging beast of an economy... when the UK joined the EU in 1973 the country was already f**ked. We got a bailout from the IMF in 1976! It's very easy to complain about red tape, but I'm sure businesses would complain if they had to compete with companies from countries where regulations were looser. And all this complaining about sending money to poorer countries in the EU: have you not considered that if you build a road in Poland, the resultant growth in that economy means that Poles can buy more goods from the UK? And personally, I'd like to see another layer of government curtailing Cameron/Osbourne's power - their economic policies are a joke (as we're Blair/Brown's). How do you solve the housing crisis - give/lend people money to push prices up further and make homes even more unaffordable?! And for all this s**t he taks about living within our means and hardworking people, why can't he grow a pair and get certain companies to pay the tax they owe? Business owners should seek to maximise their profits and pay the least amount of tax possible - it's up to governments to set the rules and enforce them properly. The system is "too generous" - not to poor people struggling to make ends meet and going to food banks, but to companies making billions in profits!

So, do you want to let incompetent Dave preside over a long and spectacular decline in your economy?
 
Messages
6,001
Dead right about the S.E of England
Us poor people in the desolate North are barely considered
I think you are right too about most people not noticing any difference
I still believe the over riding issue will be immigration to the UK and I still believe most people do not want any more
But if anyone speaks up they are branded racist, so it would probably take someone like Boris...............
 

NickP

Member
Messages
1,623
All this scaremongering on both sides is quite frankly ridiculous.

Businesses won't suddenly stop trading with the EU, the pound may drop a little but this will be great for exports and mean that ppl buy British (we do still make stuff). We will also be able to set up trade deals without EU red tape. The Germans won't suddenly stop selling us BMWs. This letter from leaders of business who live in their ivory towers, they all love the EU because they get cheap labour.

We survived 1000 years without the EU and we certainly can do so now, we are the 5th largest economy in the world. Why we would want to be part of a stagnant EU that is frankly a bubble waiting to burst is beyond me.
 

m1980k

Junior Member
Messages
467
All this scaremongering on both sides is quite frankly ridiculous.

Businesses won't suddenly stop trading with the EU, the pound may drop a little but this will be great for exports and mean that ppl buy British (we do still make stuff). We will also be able to set up trade deals without EU red tape. The Germans won't suddenly stop selling us BMWs. This letter from leaders of business who live in their ivory towers, they all love the EU because they get cheap labour.

We survived 1000 years without the EU and we certainly can do so now, we are the 5th largest economy in the world. Why we would want to be part of a stagnant EU that is frankly a bubble waiting to burst is beyond me.

Yes, and if the pound drops in value it will cost us more to buy imports and we'll get inflation!

And you think EU countries will let our businesses compete with theirs when ours face laxer regulation?!

We may be the 5th largest economy, but that won't be for ever. In 50 years, outside the EU, the English PM won't get their calls answered by their Chinese, Indian or Brazilian counterparts. We will not have a seat at the important negotiating tables.

We might survive outside the EU, but we might be worse off...

I don't think the EU is perfect - what government/bureacracy is? - but I'm just not optimistic about the alternatives.