Parisien
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f1 pump help?!
- Thread starter karatemaserati
- Start date
Parisien
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Parisien
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Some debate and info on here too
http://www.sportsmaserati.com/showt...itting-new-F1-Pump-Relay?highlight=relay+pump
P
http://www.sportsmaserati.com/showt...itting-new-F1-Pump-Relay?highlight=relay+pump
P
karatemaserati
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Aww jeez thanks for even more ifs and buts ha ha.
Well im gonna try and get the bmw 525 abs one either from halfords when it opens @ 10 or go in to a bmw dealer tommorow.
Its an 02cc by the way
Well im gonna try and get the bmw 525 abs one either from halfords when it opens @ 10 or go in to a bmw dealer tommorow.
Its an 02cc by the way
Parisien
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https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Results&keywords=11130287+
This is still the acceptable alternative guys?
P
This is still the acceptable alternative guys?
P
Parisien
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They also do a cheap pump, exactly the same, old type mind you , plus its only the pump they supply, not the box of electronics which come with it if you buy from maserati themselves, not sure about Eurospares
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=3319&sku=47745
P
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=3319&sku=47745
P
mjheathcote
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I would just get a regular 30A 4 prong relay from Halfords to get you going, as according to Craig the fifth prong is not used. Looking at the correct 5 prong relay and circuit diagram on the side apart from the fifth prong, the remaining 4 prongs are in the same position as a regular 4 prong relay with the same switching arrangement. I'm sure there must be a regular 4 prong relay used somewhere else on the car to try though!
karatemaserati
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Tried non of the others fit all different shapes! Halfords didnt have onevwhen i rang. Andcthe other motor place sold the last one 10 mins before i rang 
CatmanV2
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Where are you?
There's just about nothing you can do with a relay that's going to break anything. I've said it before, it's just a switch. The biggest risk is if the contacts arc and the pump stays on constantly. If you're looking for a get me home solution you can just grab one that looks the same from Halfrauds. Rough guess the horn relay would probably do it as well.
C
There's just about nothing you can do with a relay that's going to break anything. I've said it before, it's just a switch. The biggest risk is if the contacts arc and the pump stays on constantly. If you're looking for a get me home solution you can just grab one that looks the same from Halfrauds. Rough guess the horn relay would probably do it as well.
C
CraigWaterman11
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+1 @Catman
CraigWaterman11
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Relays
Guys I'm finally home in Boston, and thought I would post. I'm thinking the thread really turned into more of a complex issue then it needed to be but nevertheless:
First, start with this dealing with relays and as Chris has adequately described as a switch. He's correct, please read about Single Pole Double Throw relays here:
http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp
You can read about the other types as well if you'd like but what you are dealing with here is a Single Pole Double Throw relay in our cars. The importance for relays whether for cooling fans, or F1 pumps is essentially it allows you to use a few volt gauge wires to control a switch where you need many amps to a circuit. The relay (switch) is controlled by a few volts to kick in a magnetic field that toggles the relay mechanism controlling many amp wires that can handle that load without wiring 14-16 gauge (can be more or less) wires all through the entire chassis of the car. Please notice that for the fifth wire I was asked about above, I stated there was essentially no purpose for it, it's because it's on the normally closed circuit which as discussed above would have no function within the control system of the relay. Please read those small paragraphs above (in the link I posted about relays) and then look at the included diagrams. I'm telling you guys, this is really not that difficult of an issue. I did read all of those articles on relays for ML before, and for the most part it made me scratch my head. First, there's a lot of snake oil surrounding a five prong relay that doesn't need to be. The wire on 87(a) is a non-controlling wire, and is not powering anything once the relay is toggled (I'm referencing specifically in this instance our F1 pumps as other 5 prong relays can control other purposes on 87(a)). One of the suggested functions was that it just told the TCU that it had left the normally closed contact, for instance like a regular dual function 5 prong relay could toggle an auxiliary light when not toggled to the main function you wanted. Either way I don't want to get to deep into that fifth wire, because once again it's on the normally closed contact, it does not affect the system when it's out of function, and ironically was done away with in the GS series cars. I have been running a universal four prong relay in my car for almost two years now, and here are some photos to show you exactly what I am talking about that I've had from when I changed it and discussed it on ML.
First lets look at the top of the base the five prong relay goes into:
Look at how those holes are lined up.....2/4/5/6/8 are the holes the five prong relay fits in. You aren't going to see 87 or 87(a) on the top part of the base it's not there you need to read the top of the relays for that information. But if you study relays just for a short time you will see that what I am saying about the normally closed circuit is the fifth prong of the relay we have in our cars. But more importantly look at the base for 2/4/6/8.......did you notice that 2/4/6 are all the exact same width but the five prong relay prongs they are sticking in it are not. Look at #8 on the base as well. Now look at the blades on these relays for me:
The two on the left are universal relays, the clear one to the very left is an 80 amp relay I have been running in the car for about 2 years, the one in the middle is a universal 40 amp relay from an auto parts store. The red colored one is a Ferrari relay, the same type the GS now runs. Do you see the wide blade on the Ferrari relay on the bottom? BTW that's a 50 amp Ferrari relay. The wide blade prevents it from being put into a universal base like what we have on the 4200 (but they might possibly be able to use a universal one though the prongs are smaller). Notice how all the prongs are identical in size/width just like I pointed out on the relay base of the 4200 above? Before I forget, don't worry about that metal mounting tab on the middle relay, it's not necessary, and it can be removed. I just took it out of the packaging that way when I took the photo.
Here's a side view of all of those relays, again look at the width and depth of the prong on that F car relay, and the normal prongs for the others......
How do I know that it's a Single Pole Double throw relay, and it matches the specs and fits in the universal base in our cars? Look at the diagrams on the tops of each one of those relays including the F car relay.....compare it to the top of the one in our car. I didn't post a photo of the one in our car because all of those other threads that were posted from ML have them, as well you can just pull it out of your car and check it..............The voltage is obvious for our cars (12 volts), the wiring schematic is listed on the top of each type of relay
Here it is running in the car. I specifically bought a clear one not only because of the amperage thus durability but I can see it toggle every time and also see if the contacts ever weld together:
Where's Chris at? Come check my logic brother if I'm wrong I will promptly admit it. I just think that this relay issue has become more complex than it needs to be.
Guys I'm finally home in Boston, and thought I would post. I'm thinking the thread really turned into more of a complex issue then it needed to be but nevertheless:
First, start with this dealing with relays and as Chris has adequately described as a switch. He's correct, please read about Single Pole Double Throw relays here:
http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp
You can read about the other types as well if you'd like but what you are dealing with here is a Single Pole Double Throw relay in our cars. The importance for relays whether for cooling fans, or F1 pumps is essentially it allows you to use a few volt gauge wires to control a switch where you need many amps to a circuit. The relay (switch) is controlled by a few volts to kick in a magnetic field that toggles the relay mechanism controlling many amp wires that can handle that load without wiring 14-16 gauge (can be more or less) wires all through the entire chassis of the car. Please notice that for the fifth wire I was asked about above, I stated there was essentially no purpose for it, it's because it's on the normally closed circuit which as discussed above would have no function within the control system of the relay. Please read those small paragraphs above (in the link I posted about relays) and then look at the included diagrams. I'm telling you guys, this is really not that difficult of an issue. I did read all of those articles on relays for ML before, and for the most part it made me scratch my head. First, there's a lot of snake oil surrounding a five prong relay that doesn't need to be. The wire on 87(a) is a non-controlling wire, and is not powering anything once the relay is toggled (I'm referencing specifically in this instance our F1 pumps as other 5 prong relays can control other purposes on 87(a)). One of the suggested functions was that it just told the TCU that it had left the normally closed contact, for instance like a regular dual function 5 prong relay could toggle an auxiliary light when not toggled to the main function you wanted. Either way I don't want to get to deep into that fifth wire, because once again it's on the normally closed contact, it does not affect the system when it's out of function, and ironically was done away with in the GS series cars. I have been running a universal four prong relay in my car for almost two years now, and here are some photos to show you exactly what I am talking about that I've had from when I changed it and discussed it on ML.
First lets look at the top of the base the five prong relay goes into:
Look at how those holes are lined up.....2/4/5/6/8 are the holes the five prong relay fits in. You aren't going to see 87 or 87(a) on the top part of the base it's not there you need to read the top of the relays for that information. But if you study relays just for a short time you will see that what I am saying about the normally closed circuit is the fifth prong of the relay we have in our cars. But more importantly look at the base for 2/4/6/8.......did you notice that 2/4/6 are all the exact same width but the five prong relay prongs they are sticking in it are not. Look at #8 on the base as well. Now look at the blades on these relays for me:
The two on the left are universal relays, the clear one to the very left is an 80 amp relay I have been running in the car for about 2 years, the one in the middle is a universal 40 amp relay from an auto parts store. The red colored one is a Ferrari relay, the same type the GS now runs. Do you see the wide blade on the Ferrari relay on the bottom? BTW that's a 50 amp Ferrari relay. The wide blade prevents it from being put into a universal base like what we have on the 4200 (but they might possibly be able to use a universal one though the prongs are smaller). Notice how all the prongs are identical in size/width just like I pointed out on the relay base of the 4200 above? Before I forget, don't worry about that metal mounting tab on the middle relay, it's not necessary, and it can be removed. I just took it out of the packaging that way when I took the photo.
Here's a side view of all of those relays, again look at the width and depth of the prong on that F car relay, and the normal prongs for the others......
How do I know that it's a Single Pole Double throw relay, and it matches the specs and fits in the universal base in our cars? Look at the diagrams on the tops of each one of those relays including the F car relay.....compare it to the top of the one in our car. I didn't post a photo of the one in our car because all of those other threads that were posted from ML have them, as well you can just pull it out of your car and check it..............The voltage is obvious for our cars (12 volts), the wiring schematic is listed on the top of each type of relay
Here it is running in the car. I specifically bought a clear one not only because of the amperage thus durability but I can see it toggle every time and also see if the contacts ever weld together:
Where's Chris at? Come check my logic brother if I'm wrong I will promptly admit it. I just think that this relay issue has become more complex than it needs to be.
CatmanV2
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No sir. It's been massively over complicated. I agree the potential impact of the contacts welding is unpleasant, but it really really is not rocket science
I'd quite like to make a solid state replacement with an audible alarm should it stay on for more than (say) 20 seconds. But time......
C
I'd quite like to make a solid state replacement with an audible alarm should it stay on for more than (say) 20 seconds. But time......
C
CraigWaterman11
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Chris I really look forward to the solid state.....I'm hoping one day you'll have time. It's a great idea.
@karatemaserati if you go on-line put "universal four prong relay" in google search or the browser, you can buy them on-line as well. Additionally, go to any major chain auto parts store's website that is close by put relay in their search engine. All types of relays will come up. Look at the prongs on each one, it should look like the photos above, the amps doesn't matter because no autoparts store is going to have less than 30 amps in a four prong relay anyway. But just look for three specific things.....volts must be 12 VDC, Amps 30 or higher, and of course four prongs, three prongs running the same direction, and one at the top running crosswise. It can be listed as a fuel injector relay, or convertible top relay, etc. It doesn't matter what they call it, the relay will be the same. If all else fails and you cannot get one new to try to get the girl on the road, walk into your local salvage yard, and tell them you want a universal four prong relay for a project you're working on. If you want grab a couple to be safe. I'm sure they will probably hand you a handful for $10 USD. You obviously are going to feel you want something brand new, that's fine, use the used relays for now, sit down on the Internet, go to ebay or amazon.com and have a new one at your door within a week. The diagram on the top of the four prong relay will have 84-85 as the power prongs of the circuit. The 30 and 87 prongs are your controlling part of the relay. To recognize what it will look like see the link below. Again don't worry about 87(a) you can see in the link below 30 and 87 contact is broken while off. Which ever relay you buy the diagram will be similar. Even the junk yard specials will have this diagram on the top of the relays you purchase. It doesn't matter whether the diagram is big or small, or whether the break is going left or right up or down. Just make sure that 85-84 are your high powered, or powered prongs, 87-30 are the switching prongs.
http://d114hh0cykhyb0.cloudfront.net/images/uploads/r5-spdt-1240-conn.jpg
If you are going to order it on-line get a higher amperage relay. What I found was the amperage draw for a brand new F1 pump is almost to the max of the relay in the car. So when you bench test a brand new F1 pump you will see the amperage draw is about 27.55 amps. For a fuse this is fine because when a pump motor fails a common occurrence is that it taxes the amperage work load, so it has more current draw which blows the 30 amp fuse in the car. That protects the wiring in the vehicle for a failed motor. What you don't want to ever do is increase the fuse capacity to a higher amperage. But for the relay when it fails the contacts consistently weld shut or together which means the switch is no longer a switch but a straight wired contact connection keeping the pump on until it fails. Did you notice Maserati went to a 50 amp relay in the GS cars for the F1 pump, also Ferrari as well? A relay is different, unlike a fuse that you never want to increase amperage a relay is a switch that can be taxed. When the relay amperage is increased it's able to toggle a higher work load through it's contacts. Because the fuse is already protecting the amount of amperage allowed through the relay you never have to worry about 80 amps coming down the line through the relay. But because the relay can toggle 80 amps it's ability to resist contact welding is greater than say 30 amps. Anyway so to make this short if you need to use a used one do so for now, order a higher amperage one on-line and at least this part of the equation for you will be solved.
@karatemaserati if you go on-line put "universal four prong relay" in google search or the browser, you can buy them on-line as well. Additionally, go to any major chain auto parts store's website that is close by put relay in their search engine. All types of relays will come up. Look at the prongs on each one, it should look like the photos above, the amps doesn't matter because no autoparts store is going to have less than 30 amps in a four prong relay anyway. But just look for three specific things.....volts must be 12 VDC, Amps 30 or higher, and of course four prongs, three prongs running the same direction, and one at the top running crosswise. It can be listed as a fuel injector relay, or convertible top relay, etc. It doesn't matter what they call it, the relay will be the same. If all else fails and you cannot get one new to try to get the girl on the road, walk into your local salvage yard, and tell them you want a universal four prong relay for a project you're working on. If you want grab a couple to be safe. I'm sure they will probably hand you a handful for $10 USD. You obviously are going to feel you want something brand new, that's fine, use the used relays for now, sit down on the Internet, go to ebay or amazon.com and have a new one at your door within a week. The diagram on the top of the four prong relay will have 84-85 as the power prongs of the circuit. The 30 and 87 prongs are your controlling part of the relay. To recognize what it will look like see the link below. Again don't worry about 87(a) you can see in the link below 30 and 87 contact is broken while off. Which ever relay you buy the diagram will be similar. Even the junk yard specials will have this diagram on the top of the relays you purchase. It doesn't matter whether the diagram is big or small, or whether the break is going left or right up or down. Just make sure that 85-84 are your high powered, or powered prongs, 87-30 are the switching prongs.
http://d114hh0cykhyb0.cloudfront.net/images/uploads/r5-spdt-1240-conn.jpg
If you are going to order it on-line get a higher amperage relay. What I found was the amperage draw for a brand new F1 pump is almost to the max of the relay in the car. So when you bench test a brand new F1 pump you will see the amperage draw is about 27.55 amps. For a fuse this is fine because when a pump motor fails a common occurrence is that it taxes the amperage work load, so it has more current draw which blows the 30 amp fuse in the car. That protects the wiring in the vehicle for a failed motor. What you don't want to ever do is increase the fuse capacity to a higher amperage. But for the relay when it fails the contacts consistently weld shut or together which means the switch is no longer a switch but a straight wired contact connection keeping the pump on until it fails. Did you notice Maserati went to a 50 amp relay in the GS cars for the F1 pump, also Ferrari as well? A relay is different, unlike a fuse that you never want to increase amperage a relay is a switch that can be taxed. When the relay amperage is increased it's able to toggle a higher work load through it's contacts. Because the fuse is already protecting the amount of amperage allowed through the relay you never have to worry about 80 amps coming down the line through the relay. But because the relay can toggle 80 amps it's ability to resist contact welding is greater than say 30 amps. Anyway so to make this short if you need to use a used one do so for now, order a higher amperage one on-line and at least this part of the equation for you will be solved.
karatemaserati
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some really great posts here anyway i got her recovered bk to my flat by RAC where she is safe behind locked gates. iv got a BMW relay... thirteen quid from plymouth MD and the battery is on charge.
will update once i stick the battery bk in 2moz and try the relay...
should battery's bubble when they chrarge by the way?? its an 80ah battery and it has been on for 10 hrs charger is 8.5a.... the charger gauge still says its taking 6 amps.
anyway i got her recovered bk to my flat by RAC where she is safe behind locked gates. iv got a BMW relay... thirteen quid from plymouth MD and the battery is on charge. will update once i stick the battery bk in 2moz and try the relay...
should battery's bubble when they chrarge by the way?? its an 80ah battery and it has been on for 10 hrs charger is 8.5a.... the charger gauge still says its taking 6 amps.
karatemaserati
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Well the new bmw relay didnt work so iv whipped the old pump out using predators ace guide and my new one should be comming this morning.
If that doesnt work its low loader to MD Time i guess.
If
If that doesnt work its low loader to MD Time i guess.
If