f1 pump help?!

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493
Erm Maybe lol. Anyway iv just plugged in the new one and as soon as i turned the battery isolator switch it started wizzing round. So we can safely say it was the pump. Just gotta plumb it in now i take it.

Just one thing... in predators awesome guide (that im verry greatful for!) it doesnt mention bleeding. This is something that i dont have to do?
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,951
Shouldn't have to assuming you're replacing only the motor, and haven't split the hydraulics to remove the whole pump.

I wouldn't let the motor run unloaded for any long time either.

C
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,951
That's a shame. You can (could have) just removed the motor :(

Yes you need to bleed it, Craig has done some detail on this on the clutch thread.

C
 

CraigWaterman11

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762
Chris, is correct you can just remove the motor from the front part of the pump bracket. I'm all about photos most of the time, and go figure when I replaced the pump a few years back I forgot to take them. I do have some videos of bench testing the motor afterward but in either case I know someone here must have some photos or a thread started showing you how to do it without breaking open the hydraulic system. Of those four bolts two are allen bolt head or hex head, the other two are star head bolts. They sit diagonally across from each other, if you take out just the allen head bolts and leave the stars it comes off the front base where it connects into the hydraulic system without splitting it open. You probably are wondering why I added all of this when you've already done it, it's more for the person who comes by this thread looking for information than in your situation.

In either case, you are looking for the bleed valve by the quick disconnect coupler.....and we have pictures, they have been circulated a few times now but at least we have them.:

It sits under your gear shift actuator, follow that stainless steel hydraulic line in the photo. In the bottom of the photo you see that black dust cap? Take that dust cap off, and use a vacuum brake bleeder on it.

IMAG1697.jpg


IMAG1841.jpg

The photo above with the gear box out and actuator off, you can see where the quick disconnect coupler connects. The brass colored part is what you want to focus on. The dust cap is on it. You will need to pop that off to bleed it. I just use the plastic tube coming off of the brake bleeder with no adapters. This bleeder is slightly larger than a normal brake bleed valve. It makes sure you have an air tight connection. NOTE: you have to loosen the brake bleeder in order to open the system just like a brake bleed valve. Because this probably hasn't been done in a while you more than likely will need to hold a wrench on the front brass part to open the back part with another wrench. At first it was so tight on my car that I thought I was wrong about it being another bleed valve even though my eyes told me so. It is, just be careful not to strip it is all. To be honest since you will need to be under the car anyway, and have split the hydraulic system, if it was me, I would probably flush out the entire system by bleeding it from the bell housing to. Then you won't have to pay for it later to have it done. There's another bleed valve on the bell housing to do that one, it services the hydraulic system for the thrust bearing area.

IMAG1929.jpg
 
Messages
493
Just to clarify this is the bit i want

'It sits under your gear shift actuator, follow that stainless steel hydraulic line in the photo. In the bottom of the photo you see that black dust cap? Take that dust cap off, and use a vacuum brake bleeder on it.'

And whats written underneath doesnt apply to me right?
 

CraigWaterman11

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762
Well if you would like to bleed your entire hydraulic system out it does apply. You can use the bleed valve off of the bell housing instead. But maybe we should just keep it simple, ignore everything after...."use a vacuum brake bleeder on it." Sometimes I think I might get a little carried away with posts and confuse people. I apologize for that. Have you bled brakes before though? I'm not asking to be a jerk or anything like that. I'm asking because I want to make sure we lead you the correct way, and you don't open the valve and then put air into the system while trying to bleed them.
 
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493
ok well not to discredit cause your advice has been golden so far but i read a thread by loz that said it was a self prime system, also rang an indy who said i souldnt need to bleed if only changing pump, so i went with the no bleed option...

anyway the pump is back in, all connected up, reconnected the bat and started her up... the CC light is out she primes and i can select gears!!

only now when i take my foot off the brake i get a computer beep beep and she selects back to neutral :(

may have to bleed after all or is this something else??
 

CraigWaterman11

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762
Well it is a self prime system depending on what your definition of self prime is and how much of the system has air in it. For me when I changed the pump, and relocated the reservoir I didn't have to bleed it at all. If any independent tells you though that after opening up the system (of course depending on how you do it,) it doesn't need to be bled that's incorrect. There is no self bleed for this system where if you repair or break the system open some-where it will just bleed all of the air out for you. Here let me draw a conclusion based on what Ferrari did with the hydraulic system. There's a bleed valve on the bell housing, there's a bleed valve by the quick disconnect coupler, there are three bleed screws on the back of the actuator to purge air out, and there's one on the solenoid block to the left of the pressure sensor (at least it resembles one though I've never messed with it (not the pressure regulator the one to the right of that)). Additionally in the service manual there is very specific instructions for bleeding the system out. I do know that the pressure in that system is supposed to stay at 45-48 psi +/-. Additionally, the only analogy I can draw right now is a hydraulic brake system, if you depress a pedal on the brakes of the car the brakes don't necessarily stop working altogether with air in it. If you have just a little air the pedal feel is spongy before it brakes the car, a lot of air and the pedal goes to the floor. Do you get what I'm saying? When I have messed with the pump I never needed to bleed it. When I changed the clutch though, I bled the entire system. To be honest the service manual doesn't say you can bleed the system whatsoever other than with a Leonardo computer, SD2/3 or similar. But I know of two maybe more ways it can be done. Have Joe sit in the car continuously toggle 1st-neutral as you turn the bleed valves, or use a vacuum bleeder like I suggested so you don't need anyone. You could probably jump the pump in intervals as well. I cannot say for sure what you have got there. I can only suggest, when I'm asked, to present solutions I've used. My mind tells me if you pulled the banjo nut off of the pump, that would drain part of the hydraulic fluid before the banjo nut. So if you just put the pump back on, the pump is just that a pump, there isn't a pressure release, or air release on it. So lets say there was a pocket of air in there between the pump and the hydraulic system you started the pump, would it not just pump hydraulic fluid right behind the air? Now to be honest you can do whatever you want between the reservoir to the pump. You can take the reservoir off put it anywhere you want because the air will just trickle back to the reservoir as in this situation gravity feeds it to the pump. But how does the air get out of an incarcerated system when you seal it back up? Let me clarify something if you don't mind, so you told the Indy you split the system between the solenoid block and pump and he stated don't worry about it, it self primes? He could be correct I don't know, my logical might be missing something about that part of the system. I would think it would just push that air as far as it could until it cannot go anymore, possibly the solenoid block?
 

CraigWaterman11

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762
Chris, I don't know, I guess I interpreted it somehow at least close to that because of what the mechanic told him, but I agree with you.
 

CraigWaterman11

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762
Karate I actually just messaged a Master Mechanic who's dedicated to exotics. I want to make sure for you. I am a mechanic, and I hope to take all the tests this year to be Master certified. But even then there's things on these cars I would rather collaborate on to get you a correct answer than for me to assume I'm right or think I'm right about something. Neither of these two things is beneficial when a person's car is down. I've never learned anything through pride other than humility in the fall. So give me a minute to get an answer back and I will post it for you.
 

CraigWaterman11

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Karate this is the answer he sent back to me, sorry it took me a bit I was under a truck:
"Air is absolutely introduced into the system at that point and it is a closed loop system so getting it bled is an important part of the process. I doubt it's the root cause of the current issue though, there's probably a problem with some other part of the system."

I explained to him what was done and that was his response. So my suggestion is to get the car bled out, and then see where you're at. If you still have issues it might be time to ask someone to hook the car up to the computer.
 
Messages
493
Thank you Craig i appreciate your efforts. I am back offshore now till just before xmas but will give it a good bleed when i get back and let you know how i get on
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,336
If you can select a gear but it goes back to neutral when you go to move off this is most likely a clutch actuator position fault code I believe. A friends QP had a fault with its pump the relay overheated. Once the relay was replaced it primed and selected a gear. When he went to move off it went back to neutral. It threw a "clutch position sensor fault" on the AA mans diag machine. Once reset off it went. Could be the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Steve GS

Member
Messages
1,526
Hi just after some info the f1 pump is that the pump that primes when unlocking the car then again when opening the drivers door. And this pump has something todo with the gears yes.
If so if this pump don't prime the second time would this have a factor into why I can't select reverse gear.
 

Chrisbassett

Member
Messages
3,909
I think the second one only happens if it's been a while between unlocking and opening. Stand to be corrected though as I can't verify that. From what I understand, the priming is so it can react correctly when starting the car, dropping to neutral if left in gear.
 

CraigWaterman11

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762
Yes Chris is correct. There's a pressure sensor on the solenoid valve body. It tells the car what the pressure in the system is, so what you'll notice is if you open the car door when you first go out it runs a little while. Open the door again, and again immediately afterwards and you'll notice it's just short bursts the pump primes. The car senses that the system is already up to pressure.