Energy crisis

Phil H

Member
Messages
4,199
Suggest you read this then, it explains it very well using the USA data - it should be similar for most developed countries, if not better:

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichm...-really-better-for-the-climate-yes-heres-why/
Whilst that does a good job of promoting EV it only compares fuels, and makes no mention of the downsides:

Sustainability on a global scale.
Toxic pollution caused by mining the required battery material.
End of life scenario for EV cars.
Disposal of lifex batteries.

EV technology is not a panacea for climate problems, it's just another hyped product that will make a few people rich at the expense of future generations.
 

Zep

Moderator
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9,336
Whilst that does a good job of promoting EV it only compares fuels, and makes no mention of the downsides:

Sustainability on a global scale.
Toxic pollution caused by mining the required battery material.
End of life scenario for EV cars.
Disposal of lifex batteries.

EV technology is not a panacea for climate problems, it's just another hyped product that will make a few people rich at the expense of future generations.

I would suggest that:

Toxic pollution from mining is probably similar to toxic pollution from oil drilling. Also see above about recycling.

Battery material - this is the subject of significant research - chemistry will change, but also see above about recycling

End of life scenario for EV cars. Little different to that of ICE cars. Except for the batteries, see above.

Disposal of life expired batteries - they are now recycled into new batteries.

I’ve said before that once the battery conundrum is resolved there will be little to choose between the EV and ICE, and that moment is either here or getting close. The next is decarbonising the grid, which is also being worked on. The carbon performance of ICE cars is pretty much as good as it gets. EVs, sadly from our point of view, give the opportunity to have true zero emissions once the grid can support it.

There are still the infrastructure issues, range issues, the fact that they are soulless comparatively, etc etc.

Does that mean we should rush out and buy an EV? No, but when the ICE cars that have already been built are knackered, this is probably going to be the thing to do.
 

Zep

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9,336
Not really what I was getting at. If JCB were so keen on being environmentally friendly they could produce the green hydrogen here, we’ve got plenty of wind and water, rather than investing in a mining company of all things, making it 1000s of miles away.

The elephant in that particular room is our government. They have committed to a hydrogen road map with a view to creating hydrogen hubs where natural gas is replaced with H in the grid, but because we don’t have enough power (aging nuclear fleet, slower roll out of wind / tidal projects), they have decided to go down the blue hydrogen route (hydrogen produced from natural gas with as yet unproven carbon capture and storage). So if you want green hydrogen, you have to get it elsewhere.

I guess there is also a question as to where the hydrogen will be consumed. A lot of JCBs products are used in Oz and Far East. We can assume they won’t bring it to Derbyshire to send it back again.
 

Oneball

Member
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11,133
The elephant in that particular room is our government. They have committed to a hydrogen road map with a view to creating hydrogen hubs where natural gas is replaced with H in the grid, but because we don’t have enough power (aging nuclear fleet, slower roll out of wind / tidal projects), they have decided to go down the blue hydrogen route (hydrogen produced from natural gas with as yet unproven carbon capture and storage). So if you want green hydrogen, you have to get it elsewhere.

I guess there is also a question as to where the hydrogen will be consumed. A lot of JCBs products are used in Oz and Far East. We can assume they won’t bring it to Derbyshire to send it back again.

Surely you’d make your own self contained plant.

JCB said “JCB and a firm called Ryze Hydrogen would then distribute it in the UK.”
 

Zep

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9,336
Surely you’d make your own self contained plant.

JCB said “JCB and a firm called Ryze Hydrogen would then distribute it in the UK.”

Fair point on the location.

But the self contained plant would need to be powered by something, which currently (geddit) we cant do. But, with demand seeded with this, the economics will start to add up I am sure.
 

Oneball

Member
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11,133
Fair point on the location.

But the self contained plant would need to be powered by something, which currently (geddit) we cant do. But, with demand seeded with this, the economics will start to add up I am sure.

What I meant by self contained was power source and production in the same place, so instead of investing in the foreign company sell some stuffed animals, Ferraris and the odd McLaren and build a plant here. The potential difference ;-) in emissions would be significant.
 

Zep

Moderator
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9,336
What I meant by self contained was power source and production in the same place, so instead of investing in the foreign company sell some stuffed animals, Ferraris and the odd McLaren and build a plant here. The potential difference ;-) in emissions would be significant.

Agreed, and I have little doubt that will happen in time.
 

philw696

Member
Messages
25,666
And the new white goods are PCP/Lease cars and EV’s. How many ‘old cars’ do we see on the roads now? The vast majority of cars are under 10 years of age. They’re banging on about tailpipe emissions and completely ignoring the manufacturing process outputs of CO2 which are huge.
See plenty of old cars on the roads here in France and not just in my own collection where my newest car is a 2010.
I see daily Peugeot 205, 306, 405 and 406 which are quite rare now in the UK.
Same in the Citroen and Renault ranges too.
Not salting the roads too helps and living in less of a consumer society here as well.
 

Saigon

Member
Messages
778
Let’s be realistic, everything that has been proposed so far is excellent in theory, but is Impossible to economically achieve with today’s technology. Maybe as technology advances we could possibly get somewhere close, but right now it’s all pie in the sky, all talk, all trying to gain brownie points by making impossible proposals and promises. So far all proposals are unrealistic. I’m all for nuclear power, even coal powered power stations, China can’t be wrong can it ?. Until we get the likes of them and similar countries to comply, we are all p1ssing in the wind.
 

Mr Spoon

Member
Messages
407
See plenty of old cars on the roads here in France and not just in my own collection where my newest car is a 2010.
I see daily Peugeot 205, 306, 405 and 406 which are quite rare now in the UK.
Same in the Citroen and Renault ranges too.
Not salting the roads too helps and living in less of a consumer society here as well.


Older cars are just becoming rarer anyway.... Easy access PCP did that. As soon as those who had £300 left over a month realised it bought them an evoque, their one owner from new integrale went to the scrap heap.
 

TimR

Member
Messages
2,731
This is Jeff.
Jeff made his billions by undercutting local shops and shipping stuff halfway round the world.
Over the summer, Jeff flew on his private spacecraft just so he can see what just a touch over 10 minutes in space looks like.
Last week Jeff flew his Private jet from America to Turkey, then took a private helicopter to Bill Gates' Superyacht so he could go to Bill’s party.
This week Jeff has flown his private jet to Glasgow so he can tell you and I that we shouldn’t be wasting earth's resources going to Benidorm for 2 weeks on an EasyJet cattle plane.
Be less Jeff. Jeff is a d1ckhead
1f51a.png

92718
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,336
This is Jeff.
Jeff made his billions by undercutting local shops and shipping stuff halfway round the world.
Over the summer, Jeff flew on his private spacecraft just so he can see what just a touch over 10 minutes in space looks like.
Last week Jeff flew his Private jet from America to Turkey, then took a private helicopter to Bill Gates' Superyacht so he could go to Bill’s party.
This week Jeff has flown his private jet to Glasgow so he can tell you and I that we shouldn’t be wasting earth's resources going to Benidorm for 2 weeks on an EasyJet cattle plane.
Be less Jeff. Jeff is a d1ckhead
1f51a.png

View attachment 92718

I did see that he had made a speech and thought, what a bell end.
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
Back on the subject of high energy prices.

Putin 'saved' the day by saying that he would supply more gas to Europe to keep us warm this winter. Wholesale energy prices dived.

However, it turns out that there isn't enough pipeline capacity for him to supply us anything.

The result. No Russian gas. Wholesale energy prices back rising again.

92724
 

Mr Spoon

Member
Messages
407
Back on the subject of high energy prices.

Putin 'saved' the day by saying that he would supply more gas to Europe to keep us warm this winter. Wholesale energy prices dived.

However, it turns out that there isn't enough pipeline capacity for him to supply us anything.

The result. No Russian gas. Wholesale energy prices back rising again.

View attachment 92724

I'm not educated on gas or electricity but it seems it's similar to fuel. Prices traded on news and poor information.

My parents said gas used to be free.... Anyone concur?
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
I'm not educated on gas or electricity but it seems it's similar to fuel. Prices traded on news and poor information.

My parents said gas used to be free.... Anyone concur?

Gas and electricity prices are dictated on a number of things, weather, supply, demand, speculators, political events, jeez the list is endless.

Gas free? Only if you collected it yourself from your coal fire!