Impressive!

[Zep]

Interesting that they use the Nissan Leaf as their case study. The factory at Sunderland has quite a few very large wind turbines and a lot of PV and I know only buy green electricity from the grid as well (not only good PR but good to see they're doing their bit for the planet).

I'm doing a lot of work in Poland at the moment where there is a massive rush to decarbonise their energy generation at the moment.

The country has a very large manufacturing industry.

The following manufacturers build cars there.
Ford, Opel, Fiat, Lancia (remember them) Chevrolet.
I'll ignore the engine builders as none make their electric or hybrid engines there.

But if we look at seats the following manufacturers use seats made there. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, Opel, Volvo, Suzuki, Mitsubishi and Porsche.

And most of the tyre manufacturers have factories there, Goodyear, Dunlop, Fulda, Michelin (the list goes on).

Only 13% of the electricity in Poland is from renewables. Most comes from coal.

Far be it from me to suggest they cherry pick their example, but it does seem to be skewed towards using the greenest possible car as opposed to the industry average.

Or is it just me?

The reason they chose the Leaf is because it was the top selling EV in Europe at the time. So, a fairly reasonable choice, or not? They also provide comparisons to other EVs and make a good point about the embodied carbon from the production of batteries and the impact it has on lifetime emissions as can be seen in the graphs for a Tesla.



Far be it for me to suggest you are cherry picking a reason to pooh pooh the report.

 

[Felonious Crud]

Most EVs bought (leased probably) won't pass 90k for 10yrs or more. I withdraw my 13k figure!

In my house, our cars average 3-4k miles per year each. For us, an EV would be spectacularly pointless. Even if we had only one car and it was EV, it would still be totally pointless. I think the best EV use-case (commute. go home, charge, commute, shops, charge, commute, repeat ad mortem) will likely not achieve the 'necessary' mileage within the ownership period of the aspiring planet-saver that first purchased the car.

 

[Oneball]

In my house, our cars average 3-4k miles per year each. For us, an EV would be spectacularly pointless. Even if we had only one car and it was EV, it would still be totally pointless. I think the best EV use-case (commute. go home, charge, commute, shops, charge, commute, repeat ad mortem) will likely not achieve the 'necessary' mileage within the ownership period of the aspiring planet-saver that first purchased the car.

You might as well walk ;-)

 

[Felonious Crud]

You might as well walk ;-)

We generally do! Average around 35/40 miles a week. Combined, we walk further than the average annual mileage of our cars.

 

[Oneball]

We generally do! Average around 35/40 miles a week. Combined, we walk further than the average annual mileage of our cars.

I do too. Work, Sainsbury’s, into town etc. But I still managed 7000 miles last year. To be honest though I really can’t work out how!

 

[Wack61]

In December, just over 25% of new cars sold in the UK were fully electric. Given it’s still 8 years until the ban on ICE cars, the rate of uptake of electric vehicles is incredible.

Electric cars are available on motability now

The only expense on motability is fuel , they pay everything else , electric is almost a free car on motability , that'll be a big part of that 25% .

There's quite a few with nil advance payment to further incentivise people into them

Electric Motability Cars | Electric Plug In Mobility Car Deals

Discover all the latest Motability EV offers on 100% electric Motability cars that now come with a free home charger. Plug-in electric Mobility cars release zero emissions while driving.

www.motaclarity.co.uk

 

[FIFTY]

I had lunch a couple of weeks ago with the journalist and petrolhead Tom Ford. Some very funny stories, interestingly including an East to West coast drive collecting about 15 speeding fines, one by police helicopter in Arizona that nearly earned him a criminal record! His take on electric was, I suspect similar to yours Ewan, a case of horses for courses. Use electric for the monotonous commute or school run, and save the petrol for proper driving. Incidentally he agreed my 32 year old 560SEC was probably greener than a new car every three years, whether electric or not. There must be details out there on CO2 to build and dispose?

Volvo did a study very recently

If you Google volvo co2 study you can download it off their site in pdf format

 

[MaserMike]

Out of curiosity just had a quick scan on Autotrader looking at Electric Cars vs Petrol/Diesel, comparing a couple of equivalent sized models against one another…

1) Nissan Leaf electric cars circa 2011-2012 age with around 90k to 100k+ Mileages and Upwards are asking for around £6000 upwards

Nissan Micra Petrol cars circa 2011-2012 age with similar 90k to 100k+ Mileages and upwards are asking for around £2500 upwards

2) Mercedes B class electric cars 2015 age upwards with circa 55k mileages start at a shade under £15,000

Mercedes B class diesel cars 2015 age upwards with similar mileages around -60k start at circa £11,600 upwards

That is a decent residual uplift in electric cars, but a big cost difference for someone on a budget to swallow… Then there is the additional time bomb cost of replacing the degraded battery packs in x years, unless covered by a rental plan or warranty. No idea on running cost differences such as service, tax etc. But on pure capital expenditure outlay, there is a premium in cost for sure at least between these examples above…

 

[Ewan]

I am amazed at the recharging times on the cross US run...10 or so charges in 146 minutes? Really??

Yes, really. The whole trip was video, witnessed and logged. By my maths the fuel costs worked at about £1.80 per 100 miles. Somewhat cheaper than my Srad then!

 

[Guy]

Volvo did a study very recently

If you Google volvo co2 study you can download it off their site in pdf format

Wow! Unless I read it incorrectly (and will happily be corrected!) the CO2 to make an EV is the same as 200,000kms driving (100,000kms using petrol). So your typical 'Green evangelist' swapping their company EV every 3 years will generate vastly more CO2 than owning a Maserati V8 for 10 years at 10,000kms per year. I wonder if I can get those green plates for the QPV!

 

[Zep]

In my house, our cars average 3-4k miles per year each. For us, an EV would be spectacularly pointless. Even if we had only one car and it was EV, it would still be totally pointless. I think the best EV use-case (commute. go home, charge, commute, shops, charge, commute, repeat ad mortem) will likely not achieve the 'necessary' mileage within the ownership period of the aspiring planet-saver that first purchased the car.

As you don’t scrap your cars when you have finished with them, then they will go on to be better for the environment in someone else’s hands right?

 

[Felonious Crud]

As you don’t scrap your cars when you have finished with them, then they will go on to be better for the environment in someone else’s hands right?

Eventually, but until production is more environmentally efficient and electricity generation likewise, my already-built 6l V12 is by far the greener choice than an EV that may well be scrapped before it crosses the green watershed. It'll get there, I suppose, but it ain't there yet.

 

[Greggy50]

Polestar have released 30 pages on this exploring it in great detail.

Transparency | Polestar UK

As a core Polestar value, transparency is key to improved sustainable practice, and allows you to make more informed decisions.

www.polestar.com

The payback is about 60k miles I believe which I will do within 3 years and I am sure the car will last for a lot longer than that...

There are Teslas with 300/400k miles on them and I think the tales of Mk1 Nissan Leafs with 40 miles of range and a knackered battery still gives EVs a bad name.

Also, the batteries are getting cleaner to produce and they are also becoming more efficient. As a daily driver its a no brainer however for me they will never be able to replace a ICE vehicle as something fun for the weekend.

As an aside the Taycan is pretty **** on range for the cost and isn't efficient either normally. It's total journey time that matters not the charging time as I suspect they drove incredibly slow to keep the actual charge time down.

 

[rockits]

So if I do about 4-5k miles per year the payback is 12-15 years?

Fook that ....I could be dead 5 times over before then. I'll stick with the V8's I think.

 

[rockits]

A silent EV plays havoc with my Tinnitus and Hyperacusis too

 

[Wack61]

Eventually, but until production is more environmentally efficient and electricity generation likewise, my already-built 6l V12 is by far the greener choice than an EV that may well be scrapped before it crosses the green watershed. It'll get there, I suppose, but it ain't there yet.

At an individual level it's all about money , if there were 2 cars with identical performance and running costs , ie no subsidies for the EV and electricity charged at the same rate as petrol (which at some point it'll have to be) very few would go electric but at the moment with the BIK tax savings or a free motability car you'd be mad not to if someone else were making the monthly payments.

 

[Felonious Crud]

At an individual level it's all about money , if there were 2 cars with identical performance and running costs , ie no subsidies for the EV and electricity charged at the same rate as petrol (which at some point it'll have to be) very few would go electric but at the moment with the BIK tax savings or a free motability car you'd be mad not to if someone else were making the monthly payments.

Exactly right. If it was the early noughties and I hadn't yet given up my company car in favour of more cash and less tax I would have an electric one, no doubt.

 

[Guy]

The issue is the comparison they always use; new ICE v new EV. How about; Keep your ICE interesting car 10 years or new EV. How long does it take, if ever, for EVs (typically changed by companies every 3 years) to be greener? Cars used to rust and leak oil after 3 years when I started driving, now most are still great after 10 years and 150k miles. And don't have stupid touch screens......

 

[Zep]

The issue is the comparison they always use; new ICE v new EV. How about; Keep your ICE interesting car 10 years or new EV. How long does it take, if ever, for EVs (typically changed by companies every 3 years) to be greener? Cars used to rust and leak oil after 3 years when I started driving, now most are still great after 10 years and 150k miles. And don't have stupid touch screens......

For me you have nailed it. No point throwing away a perfectly good car. But the EVs aren’t scrapped after 3 years, they just go to new owners. 90% of those owners don’t love cars, just use them, and provide years of more environmentally friendly motoring. If the carbon payback is 53k miles (from Mr Crud’s Volvo link) then why not? The lifespan of a car is 123k miles (again, from Volvo). As the grid is decarbonised, the payback will drop further.

Will EVs ever be as much fun as a Maser? No, not in a million years. But a car that does a few thousand miles a year on quiet roads aren’t the issue, it’s the ones idling outside school gates, the ones that are clocking up big miles every month. If the people that don’t care end up in EVs, for me, there is less chance of our type of cars ending up in a museum. With the side benefit of a slightly less hot planet.

 

[Wattie]

This threads interesting.

If you’ve got a passion for driving.....generally you don’t wanna buy electric.

If you’ve not experienced all that fossil fuels offer (the passion etc) .....you probably will or will combine the two (subject to budget).

(Unfortunately) The future is headed in the direction of “clean”.

We could all buy cars like that if we wanted .

The world is being changed, it’s time to represent what you want.

Or lose it.