Great letter, but having read it through I agree with the above points. Making a point of their funding is like telling a policeman that you pay his wages; it's not going to endear them to you/us. The point about not expecting change is the biggest - what's the point of going through this process if we don't expect anything to happen?
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mchristyuk
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Hi Stefano,
I agree with your sentiments, however Mr Carter was the one the that started the ball rolling on this with his "we paid the postage.. we're going to wait for a letter from Italy" attitude in his letter. The protocol may well be to get the manufacturer to look first.. but shouldn't be the protocol. The manufacturer can not make a transparent judgement as they will always weigh up honesty VS cost of "getting caught". The motoring world is littered with examples of car manufacturers doing everything in their power to avoid admitting liability for anything.
And if the person reading the letter at the DVSA does not share our passion of keeping people safe then they should be sacked on the spot as that is pretty much the whole point of the organisations existence.
It's very hard to get across what a shambles this whole thing has been without sounding condescending or patronising.. but the short sighted stupidity of some of the DVSA's "protocols" beggars belief.
It seems a lot of civil services forget they work for us the tax payer, not for themselves or the good of large corporations.
I'll revisit the wording and try my best to make it sound less like "I think you're utterly useless..".. but won't make any wild promises
Mark
I agree with your sentiments, however Mr Carter was the one the that started the ball rolling on this with his "we paid the postage.. we're going to wait for a letter from Italy" attitude in his letter. The protocol may well be to get the manufacturer to look first.. but shouldn't be the protocol. The manufacturer can not make a transparent judgement as they will always weigh up honesty VS cost of "getting caught". The motoring world is littered with examples of car manufacturers doing everything in their power to avoid admitting liability for anything.
And if the person reading the letter at the DVSA does not share our passion of keeping people safe then they should be sacked on the spot as that is pretty much the whole point of the organisations existence.
It's very hard to get across what a shambles this whole thing has been without sounding condescending or patronising.. but the short sighted stupidity of some of the DVSA's "protocols" beggars belief.
It seems a lot of civil services forget they work for us the tax payer, not for themselves or the good of large corporations.
I'll revisit the wording and try my best to make it sound less like "I think you're utterly useless..".. but won't make any wild promises
Mark
mchristyuk
Junior Member
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- 668
Round 2...
Dear Mr Carter,
Thank you for your letter of 30th July. Please understand that the only reason we as owners chose to contact the DVSA directly is concern for the safety of other road users, as the initial contact with Maserati UK and Maserati Italy had led nowhere.
It's odd that only 5 cases have been reported to you as we are aware of at least 7 cases having been filed with the DVSA covering 10 wishbones (front and rear) and currently 7 more cases covering 9 more wishbones (front and rear) are to be filed soon. With more failures turning up each month I'd expect the number of cases being filed with the DVSA to continue to rise. This is quite a significant number for a niche set of vehicles which have only just started to get examined by a small number of enthusiasts.
Regarding the fact that only mine has currently been recorded as a fully failed wishbone, (though we know of one other) I'm sure you appreciate that the next stage after cracking on the wishbone is separation from the vehicle in question. The others that have only displayed cracking so far have not had a full failure because WE notified the owners and managed to find them in time and get them removed from the cars in question.
The UK has a wealth of specialist engineering experience who could examine these parts in a couple days and provide an independent view on the cause behind the failures without any vested interest. The DVSA could then alert owners if it feels there is an issue and then work with the manufacturer towards a solution. The fact the DVSA relies on the manufacturer of the parts to drag its heels in deciding whether it is their manufacturing/design at fault or the end user is shocking. History is littered with examples of car manufacutres doing absolutely anything to admit liability, and therefore trusting them with any initial analysis work which can result in the destruction of the evidence is alarming.
Where the blame lies for the issue is currently immaterial; there were (and still are) cars driving around on our roads on the brink of an accident with the owners unaware. Considering the magnitude of the outcome of such a failure I personally find over 6 months of investigation worrisome, especially as the analysis of such material faults and manufacturing processes are so well known.
I feel it's only right to make sure our feelings are recorded should the worst happen. Again this is not about finger pointing, laying blame at anybodies doors, expecting compensation or anything of the like. Our concern is getting fellow owners notified that they should get their cars checked as soon as possible. We as a group of enthusiasts are unable to tell all owners to get their cars checked as we simply don't know who they are, the DVSA and Maserati have a far better chance of doing so.
Of significant interest is the new wishbones that are now available from Maserati that are of a completely different design and feature extra material around the failure points. We've heard rumors from many sources about “redesigned components” for a while, however this is the first time we've seen them. For Maserati to go to this much effort re-engineering parts for cars that are no longer sold, whilst telling the owners of the cars that there is no issue raises very serious questions. A cynic would suggest that they were well aware of this impending issue and tried to profit from it rather than concern themselves with the consequences of failure. For your interest I've included pictures of a new rear upper wishbone side by side with the old design so you can see for yourself.
Hopefully can be resolved quickly before somebody is seriously injured, or worse.
Dear Mr Carter,
Thank you for your letter of 30th July. Please understand that the only reason we as owners chose to contact the DVSA directly is concern for the safety of other road users, as the initial contact with Maserati UK and Maserati Italy had led nowhere.
It's odd that only 5 cases have been reported to you as we are aware of at least 7 cases having been filed with the DVSA covering 10 wishbones (front and rear) and currently 7 more cases covering 9 more wishbones (front and rear) are to be filed soon. With more failures turning up each month I'd expect the number of cases being filed with the DVSA to continue to rise. This is quite a significant number for a niche set of vehicles which have only just started to get examined by a small number of enthusiasts.
Regarding the fact that only mine has currently been recorded as a fully failed wishbone, (though we know of one other) I'm sure you appreciate that the next stage after cracking on the wishbone is separation from the vehicle in question. The others that have only displayed cracking so far have not had a full failure because WE notified the owners and managed to find them in time and get them removed from the cars in question.
The UK has a wealth of specialist engineering experience who could examine these parts in a couple days and provide an independent view on the cause behind the failures without any vested interest. The DVSA could then alert owners if it feels there is an issue and then work with the manufacturer towards a solution. The fact the DVSA relies on the manufacturer of the parts to drag its heels in deciding whether it is their manufacturing/design at fault or the end user is shocking. History is littered with examples of car manufacutres doing absolutely anything to admit liability, and therefore trusting them with any initial analysis work which can result in the destruction of the evidence is alarming.
Where the blame lies for the issue is currently immaterial; there were (and still are) cars driving around on our roads on the brink of an accident with the owners unaware. Considering the magnitude of the outcome of such a failure I personally find over 6 months of investigation worrisome, especially as the analysis of such material faults and manufacturing processes are so well known.
I feel it's only right to make sure our feelings are recorded should the worst happen. Again this is not about finger pointing, laying blame at anybodies doors, expecting compensation or anything of the like. Our concern is getting fellow owners notified that they should get their cars checked as soon as possible. We as a group of enthusiasts are unable to tell all owners to get their cars checked as we simply don't know who they are, the DVSA and Maserati have a far better chance of doing so.
Of significant interest is the new wishbones that are now available from Maserati that are of a completely different design and feature extra material around the failure points. We've heard rumors from many sources about “redesigned components” for a while, however this is the first time we've seen them. For Maserati to go to this much effort re-engineering parts for cars that are no longer sold, whilst telling the owners of the cars that there is no issue raises very serious questions. A cynic would suggest that they were well aware of this impending issue and tried to profit from it rather than concern themselves with the consequences of failure. For your interest I've included pictures of a new rear upper wishbone side by side with the old design so you can see for yourself.
Hopefully can be resolved quickly before somebody is seriously injured, or worse.
stefanocirillo
Junior Member
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- 214
Hi Mark,
i think that is much better. Only thing i might change is: 'Where the blame lies for the issue is currently immaterial'.
This is exactly what the DVSA are trying to establish. I agree with you that first and foremost people should be advised of this potentially dangerous flaw. But they are looking to determine the source of the fault (be it neglect/lack of servicing, design fault, fabrication issue etc). Lets hope they determine maserati to be at fault here!
Perhaps something along the lines of: Whilst the lengthy investigations take place as to the source of the fault, there are cars driving around on our roads on the brink of an accident......
Just my $0.02 but looks good to go. Here's hoping for a quick and decisive conclusion to this.
i think that is much better. Only thing i might change is: 'Where the blame lies for the issue is currently immaterial'.
This is exactly what the DVSA are trying to establish. I agree with you that first and foremost people should be advised of this potentially dangerous flaw. But they are looking to determine the source of the fault (be it neglect/lack of servicing, design fault, fabrication issue etc). Lets hope they determine maserati to be at fault here!
Perhaps something along the lines of: Whilst the lengthy investigations take place as to the source of the fault, there are cars driving around on our roads on the brink of an accident......
Just my $0.02 but looks good to go. Here's hoping for a quick and decisive conclusion to this.
mchristyuk
Junior Member
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- 668
Hi Stefano,
Good point. Will revise.
Cheers
Mark
Good point. Will revise.
Cheers
Mark
mchristyuk
Junior Member
- Messages
- 668
Round 3...
Dear Mr Carter,
Thank you for your letter of 30th July. Please understand that the only reason we as owners chose to contact the DVSA directly is concern for the safety of other road users, as the initial contact with Maserati UK and Maserati Italy had led nowhere.
It's odd that only 5 cases have been reported to you as we are aware of at least 7 cases having been filed with the DVSA covering 10 wishbones (front and rear) and currently 7 more cases covering 9 more wishbones (front and rear) are to be filed soon. With more failures turning up each month I'd expect the number of cases being filed with the DVSA to continue to rise. This is quite a significant number for a niche set of vehicles which have only just started to get examined by a small number of enthusiasts.
Regarding the fact that only mine has currently been recorded as a fully failed wishbone, (though we know of one other) I'm sure you appreciate that the next stage after cracking on the wishbone is separation from the vehicle in question. The others that have only displayed cracking so far have not had a full failure because WE notified the owners and managed to find them in time and get them removed from the cars in question.
The UK has a wealth of specialist engineering experience who could examine these parts in a couple days and provide an independent view on the cause behind the failures without any vested interest. The DVSA could then alert owners if it feels there is an issue and then work with the manufacturer towards a solution. The fact the DVSA relies on the manufacturer of the parts to drag its heels in deciding whether it is their manufacturing/design at fault or the end user is shocking. History is littered with examples of car manufactures doing absolutely anything to avoid admitting liability, and therefore trusting them with any initial analysis work which can result in the destruction of the evidence is alarming.
Whilst the lengthy investigations take place as to the source of the fault, there were (and still are) cars driving around on our roads on the brink of an accident with the owners unaware. Considering the magnitude of the outcome of such a failure I personally find over 6 months of investigation worrisome, especially as the analysis of such material faults and manufacturing processes are so well known.
I feel it's only right to make sure our feelings are recorded should the worst happen. Again this is not about finger pointing, laying blame at anybodies doors, expecting compensation or anything of the like. Our concern is getting fellow owners notified that they should get their cars checked as soon as possible. We as a group of enthusiasts are unable to tell all owners to get their cars checked as we simply don't know who they are, the DVSA and Maserati have a far better chance of doing so.
Of significant interest is the new wishbones that are now available from Maserati that are of a completely different design and feature extra material around the failure points. We've heard rumors from many sources about “redesigned components” for a while, however this is the first time we've seen them. For Maserati to go to this much effort re-engineering parts for cars that are no longer sold, whilst telling the owners of the cars that there is no issue raises very serious questions. A cynic would suggest that they were well aware of this impending issue and tried to profit from it rather than concern themselves with the consequences of failure. For your interest I've included pictures of a new rear upper wishbone side by side with the old design so you can see for yourself.
Hopefully can be resolved quickly before somebody is seriously injured, or worse.
Dear Mr Carter,
Thank you for your letter of 30th July. Please understand that the only reason we as owners chose to contact the DVSA directly is concern for the safety of other road users, as the initial contact with Maserati UK and Maserati Italy had led nowhere.
It's odd that only 5 cases have been reported to you as we are aware of at least 7 cases having been filed with the DVSA covering 10 wishbones (front and rear) and currently 7 more cases covering 9 more wishbones (front and rear) are to be filed soon. With more failures turning up each month I'd expect the number of cases being filed with the DVSA to continue to rise. This is quite a significant number for a niche set of vehicles which have only just started to get examined by a small number of enthusiasts.
Regarding the fact that only mine has currently been recorded as a fully failed wishbone, (though we know of one other) I'm sure you appreciate that the next stage after cracking on the wishbone is separation from the vehicle in question. The others that have only displayed cracking so far have not had a full failure because WE notified the owners and managed to find them in time and get them removed from the cars in question.
The UK has a wealth of specialist engineering experience who could examine these parts in a couple days and provide an independent view on the cause behind the failures without any vested interest. The DVSA could then alert owners if it feels there is an issue and then work with the manufacturer towards a solution. The fact the DVSA relies on the manufacturer of the parts to drag its heels in deciding whether it is their manufacturing/design at fault or the end user is shocking. History is littered with examples of car manufactures doing absolutely anything to avoid admitting liability, and therefore trusting them with any initial analysis work which can result in the destruction of the evidence is alarming.
Whilst the lengthy investigations take place as to the source of the fault, there were (and still are) cars driving around on our roads on the brink of an accident with the owners unaware. Considering the magnitude of the outcome of such a failure I personally find over 6 months of investigation worrisome, especially as the analysis of such material faults and manufacturing processes are so well known.
I feel it's only right to make sure our feelings are recorded should the worst happen. Again this is not about finger pointing, laying blame at anybodies doors, expecting compensation or anything of the like. Our concern is getting fellow owners notified that they should get their cars checked as soon as possible. We as a group of enthusiasts are unable to tell all owners to get their cars checked as we simply don't know who they are, the DVSA and Maserati have a far better chance of doing so.
Of significant interest is the new wishbones that are now available from Maserati that are of a completely different design and feature extra material around the failure points. We've heard rumors from many sources about “redesigned components” for a while, however this is the first time we've seen them. For Maserati to go to this much effort re-engineering parts for cars that are no longer sold, whilst telling the owners of the cars that there is no issue raises very serious questions. A cynic would suggest that they were well aware of this impending issue and tried to profit from it rather than concern themselves with the consequences of failure. For your interest I've included pictures of a new rear upper wishbone side by side with the old design so you can see for yourself.
Hopefully can be resolved quickly before somebody is seriously injured, or worse.
rs48635
Member
- Messages
- 3,181
Hi Guys
Been offline for some time, so I have about 40 pages of comments to read through.
I did have a response from Mr John Corcoran weeks ago, which lead me to understand the case was still "ongoing". Will dig it out at some point. Who knows I may even have an unread reply.
Desperate to get my 3200 back on the road, but only once we have an outcome. There is zero possibility that my 3200 will be used for any more charity events (like Bruntingthorpe) until the issue is resolved.
this was received 29th July 2015
Been offline for some time, so I have about 40 pages of comments to read through.
I did have a response from Mr John Corcoran weeks ago, which lead me to understand the case was still "ongoing". Will dig it out at some point. Who knows I may even have an unread reply.
Desperate to get my 3200 back on the road, but only once we have an outcome. There is zero possibility that my 3200 will be used for any more charity events (like Bruntingthorpe) until the issue is resolved.
this was received 29th July 2015
Mr Stannard
DVSA has reviewed the manufacturer's report and determined an action. Once that action has been confirmed with the manufacturer you will be advised.
Regards
John
John Corcoran
Automotive Engineer
Defects Investigations
Vehicle Safety Branch
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, 1st Floor, Berkeley House, Croydon Street, Bristol BS5 0DA
DVSA has reviewed the manufacturer's report and determined an action. Once that action has been confirmed with the manufacturer you will be advised.
Regards
John
John Corcoran
Automotive Engineer
Defects Investigations
Vehicle Safety Branch
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, 1st Floor, Berkeley House, Croydon Street, Bristol BS5 0DA
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rs48635
Member
- Messages
- 3,181
Simon
The new part has machined surfaces and a vastly superior finish, including remove of the surplus material on the casting joins. Maybe the surfaces also been treated (peening?) leaving it with a nice lustre.
The old style 'bone may well have been on a shelf for years, but still looks like a prototype in comparison.
I feel sick. every time I imagine the state of the other arms on my car. And last year I was hooning around Bruntingthorpe for charity, with other people's kids in my car. At 140mph.
The new part has machined surfaces and a vastly superior finish, including remove of the surplus material on the casting joins. Maybe the surfaces also been treated (peening?) leaving it with a nice lustre.
The old style 'bone may well have been on a shelf for years, but still looks like a prototype in comparison.
I feel sick. every time I imagine the state of the other arms on my car. And last year I was hooning around Bruntingthorpe for charity, with other people's kids in my car. At 140mph.
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mchristyuk
Junior Member
- Messages
- 668
Gents,
If you're all happy with the revised letter then I'll put it in the post today to Mr Carter, his boss and the Secretary of State for Transport (the original recipients).. then no doubt we have to wait another 6 months for something to happen...
Mark
If you're all happy with the revised letter then I'll put it in the post today to Mr Carter, his boss and the Secretary of State for Transport (the original recipients).. then no doubt we have to wait another 6 months for something to happen...
Mark
highlander
Member
- Messages
- 5,236
Do it mark. Like most committees, if we wait for every change to be agreed we will never get it done! Lol
mchristyuk
Junior Member
- Messages
- 668
Greg,
3 copies gone out this afternoon!...
I expect to get a reply in about 4 weeks (Second class post like the last) stating that the DVSA have sent me a second letter at their cost to acknowledge they've emailed me a status update... which probably states "We're waiting for the annual Italian holiday period to finish before asking Maserati to write us another letter"...
Mark
3 copies gone out this afternoon!...
I expect to get a reply in about 4 weeks (Second class post like the last) stating that the DVSA have sent me a second letter at their cost to acknowledge they've emailed me a status update... which probably states "We're waiting for the annual Italian holiday period to finish before asking Maserati to write us another letter"...
Mark
philgarner
Member
- Messages
- 226
I've reported my totally failed arm too, had the same pdf letter response from a few pages back.
Mark - letter is good.
Thanks for your efforts
Mark - letter is good.
Thanks for your efforts
Swedish Paul
Member
- Messages
- 1,811
Now I am confused. I took these pictures when my car was up on a ramp at the Maser dealers.
This first image I think of the front looks very much like the new part. I will have to check if they are the same on both sides. This second image
I think is the rear, and it is clearly the old style.
Mine is a 2006 GS. I will check this weekend. Nothing in the history of having the wishbone replaced, so I presume it came from the factory like this.
This first image I think of the front looks very much like the new part. I will have to check if they are the same on both sides. This second image
I think is the rear, and it is clearly the old style.
Mine is a 2006 GS. I will check this weekend. Nothing in the history of having the wishbone replaced, so I presume it came from the factory like this.
mchristyuk
Junior Member
- Messages
- 668
Hi Paul,
Other way round I think.. looking at the pictures I think the first one is the rear (new type) and the second is the front (old type).
Cheers
Mark
Other way round I think.. looking at the pictures I think the first one is the rear (new type) and the second is the front (old type).
Cheers
Mark
Swedish Paul
Member
- Messages
- 1,811
I think you are right. Maybe the meatier ones are on the rear because the RWD 400 bhp going to through the wheels. I seem to recall someone posting that was an issue too.
I don't think you need to jack the car to check. The new meatier ones have the odd looking lug on the flanges, you should be able to feel them. The older style are flat and smooth.
I don't think you need to jack the car to check. The new meatier ones have the odd looking lug on the flanges, you should be able to feel them. The older style are flat and smooth.
CatmanV2
Member
- Messages
- 48,947
I think you're right about front and rear. I think I can see a seam line on the first photo, though
C