GS - taking time to go into gear

[CraigWaterman11]

Sounds a bit like hydraulics to me, the gearbox should drop down to 1st on it's own as you are coming to a stop, it would appear something is not allowing the gearbox to do this and that's more than likely hydraulics..??

Yes I agree here is what the hydraulics control within the transmission itself to actuate the cluthch (see video). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo2-_qzwe9k
This is the throw-out (thrust) bearing we are discussing. It's identical to the one in the GS. It has a hydraulic slave cylinder and this gentleman will briefly explain the science behind it in the video. There's a few things I don't get in the OP's situation. First of course I guess we are assuming he has checked his F1 pump, and it primes as it always has. He hasn't mentioned blowing any fuses, which is common when the motor is pulling over it's normal amperage, which is just above 27 amps. Here's a video I personally did when my motor died in my F1 system. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtG6ko_iVR0
So if the F1 motor primes as normal, fluid level is normal, and he's not getting any messages in the transmission indicator window when he's driving for instance "Level", for fluid, or the indicator will say "F1" for low voltage, it will blink, or switch into neutral with low pressure (or bad actuator), also will go into neutral with the brake switch. None of these absolutely have to happen of course. I would postulate it's not necessarily the fluid, or pressure by itself. Of course that doesn't mean I am correct either. With these fickle systems there is a host of things not mentioned. To make a long story short with all of this unless it's just the F1 pump motor he's still in the bank for a shop to diagnose the problem whether PIS, F1 system flush ( if the fluid is just old and gummed up in the hydraulic slave or the actuators), or the more severe things. Of course I hope as everyone else it's not serious.

@OP please keep the forum posted because someone else will come along and have these same problems and we can look back to the history of the forum and see you have already experienced it. Sorry we couldn't better help you in this.

 

[hodroyd]

The only other possibility I can think of is the F1 Relay, these can go intermittant if the contacts get a bit burnt, maybe that could be looked at..??

 

[CraigWaterman11]

The only other possibility I can think of is the F1 Relay, these can go intermittant if the contacts get a bit burnt, maybe that could be looked at..??

Yes he can definitely check it out. Heck it wouldn't hurt to check any of those easy things out before he gets there. I would assume the "CC" indicator would flash at some point when it did it though. But either way, again it doesn't hurt to check any of the issues out before he gets there. Don't know about the UK but when you bring a Mas. anywhere in the U.S. people see dollars flying out the exhaust pipes!

 

[hodroyd]

£££££££££££££££'s, Hahahaha.....

 

[EnzoMC]

well little update, seems its a clutch and poss gearbox out to be sent to specialist. so very large bill anyone had experience with having gearbox out to be recond, any recommendadtion of gaage to use as i need to get the cost down

 

[EnzoMC]

autoshield seems to be a good garage so will speak to them tomorrow

 

[mjheathcote]

Clutch and flywheel replaced, yes, but gearbox out to be reconditioned??? Totally unheard of, hope not!

 

[safrane]

I had a bill for my first Maserati of £8500 for a replacement gearbox but that was from the main dealer under warranty

 

[AndyG]

My QP box has just been rebuilt due to bearing issues, which seems to be a very un common problem. Kevin and Vic of Migliore cars in Bromsgrove carried out the work for me and although the final bill was not small, it was reasonable considering the time and parts it took to get it back to full health

Andy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Clutch and flywheel replaced, yes, but gearbox out to be reconditioned??? Totally unheard of, hope not!

+1 .....wait a minute.....what was the diagnosis for the reconditioning or rebuilding of the entire transmission? I will be honest, it's not that it's impossible but with the issues you were describing something doesn't sound right to me about this. If that's the case I would purchase a used one and probably not go with someone re-conditioning it because it would be cheaper, at least in the U.S., to purchase a used transmission and you can find one with low miles for cheaper than a rebuild. I know there are guys who track these cars, and they do have issues from the F1 pump, to the clutch, to the actuators but the ENTIRE gear box. No disrespect to the guys here who have had the problem, if it was me I would get a second opinion. I was somewhat joking about the money flying out the exhaust pipe but the mood all changed and you are seriously talking about money flying out the exhaust pipes!

 

[rossyl]

Hope it is not the gearbox as well .. fingers crossed for you

 

[Geofflyn]

That or maybe need to reset the PIS on the clutch (Point of Initial Slippage) also known as your Kis (or Kiss) point.....just my thoughts.

Craig I would value your opinion on this. My car is a2006 GS LE with 28,000 miles on her. At the annual service my indie adjusted the PIS. Down to 4.2 which I think is below the recommended setting. I also have the FD DBW module fitted. What he has done has made the gear change very snappy but to me also feels mechanically brutal and I am concerned that such a low setting is going to lead to failure of something prematurely in a car that has been 100% reliable. What do you think?

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Craig I would value your opinion on this. My car is a2006 GS LE with 28,000 miles on her. At the annual service my indie adjusted the PIS. Down to 4.2 which I think is below the recommended setting. I also have the FD DBW module fitted. What he has done has made the gear change very snappy but to me also feels mechanically brutal and I am concerned that such a low setting is going to lead to failure of something prematurely in a car that has been 100% reliable. What do you think?

Geoff, you pose an excellent question. When is too much clutch engagement more harmful than good? I believe we understand the FD DBW system among other things is attempting to induce a better clutch response so that the clutch last longer by keep it from slipping in the initial engagement. Really the best analogy to give is just like a regular standard transmission. If you keep feathering the clutch on start off essentially your just burning it up and it's obviously not going to last as long. I cannot stand that our cars did this from the factory, every time it would do it I thought if I heard someone in this car from a dead stop trying to drive this car I would immediately think they had no prior experience with driving a standard transmission. It has an F1 system but the set up is very close to a standard only you have the actuators, and F1 system doing the shift for the clutch system. But the other side of the coin is dumping a clutch in a standard transmission all the time. That force that is jolted through the transmission and out the rear end or trans axles can create problems as well. That force is dispersed somewhere........I don't know if you have ever seen a transmission apart or a normal rear differential of a vehicle apart. Here is some quick examples (please note these are not in our cars but serve as an example only):

The job of these transmissions is to take the force/power/torque of our engine and transfer it through whatever differential system we use in our cars and make the car move down the road through those tires. (I realized I just simplified it) But here's the problem, what happens when you continue dropping the clutch instead of properly releasing it crunching all those little gears together? Well, as many people I am sure will tell you who have a history of drop starts or burn outs...... eventually something will give. This is true even with bullet proof racing transmissions built for the toughest of conditions. They don't last forever......those little gears can chip, lose teeth, or even one day decide it's all done and make you push it down the street instead. I remember when I was really young, I had this car that had a Chevy 350 small block in it, and I think it was a turbo 350 or 400 automatic transmission (which was known to be bullet proof). I loved to drop the auto from drive to 2nd to 1st to slow it down and rev the motor up and listen to the exhaust. However, one day I did it, and I suddenly wasn't moving anymore. The motor was revving but the car went no-where. I initially thought it was the torque converter let go, so on the side of the road I dropped the transmission's dust cover so I could see right up into the torque converter. I started the car put it in drive with the Emergency brake on and everything was doing what it was suppose to all the way back to the drive shaft. I got up went to the rear of the car and looked at the differential cover, and in the middle of the cover were gear marks where I blew it out. I literally blew the rear differential gear right out through the back of the differential cover. Here's the moral of all this, and the point, eventually the immediate clutch engagement and throwing those gears together can do the same thing. Obviously it's a different type of system in our Maseratis but the principals are identical. If it feels mechanically brutal it's probably because it is. It might not be as bad as I described in the car above but anytime the gears are jammed together and taking constant abuse something will eventually give even if you have plenty of clutch life left. You can always take the filter screen out of your gear box and check it while changing your gear oil. If you see shrapnel or excessive metal shavings you can tell it's taking a lot of abuse. Just my two cents of course......

 

[hodroyd]

On my late 42CC which is the same in almost all respects to the GS, if in Sport, which is what I usually drive in, I can drive around without accelerating hard and the shift is quite smooth, as soon as I change style and push the throttle hard in to high revs then change gear, the shift is very fast and could be considered as savage by some. So the same PIS setting is giving both smooth and hard changes dependant on the driving style.

 

[Geofflyn]

Thanks Craig, for every action there is a reaction. When he adjusted it so low I was concerned that anything below the recommended factory threshold had to come with some risk and I think you have articulated that risk very well. Interestingly enough I have driven a couple of 4200's and their gear change is definitely more brutal than a standard GS. I wonder whether the 4200 PIS recommended setting is lower than a standardGS. I think I did read somewhere that the software in the 4200 is different to the GS.
Anyway I think I am going to err on the side of caution and have it reset within factory recommended parameters.
Thanks again for your comprehensive response.
Geoff

 

[outrun]

Interesting comments from all here. I have my GS going in for a PIS adjustment to improve the speed of gear change and this is making me consider otherwise. My plan is to go out with the tech and try different settings to see where i'm comfortable and happy.

Before I do that, i'll read the outcome of this thread with interest.

Do hope your gearbox is not toasted too although I have an inkling that it's not and that there is a settings issue somewhere.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Well, I want to make sure that I don't over concern every one on this same issue. I was trying to give the opposite coin to Geoff. In his situation I think he has two very specific things that I would be careful of that most don't.
First, he has the DBW system already tricking the ecus of both the motor and transmission to engage the clutch in a more aggressive way.
Second, he has his PIS (point of initial slippage) adjusted below factory recommend specs.
Essentially, and this is what it seems to me he was saying is, he has his car just popping the clutch out in away that to me would seem unhealthy to the car. Of course the best way to see how much is too much is to test drive the vehicle after adjusting the PIS on the vehicle. Outrun you mentioned this.

@Robert I agree with you on what you stated as well. I came across an intersection really quick one time to avoid getting stuck and had the same feeling. I slammed it into the next gear only to feel like one to many times doing it and the gear box was going to give up the Ghost! So that could be part of it as well. Normally the car doesn't do this unless I am being pretty track aggressive in shifts on the street. Normal driving almost seems to me it's not engaging the clutch enough though I have my ecu flashed. So all good points to consider.

@the OP I really would like to hear what happens in your situation. Again, I can believe you might need a new clutch, throw-out assembly, actuators, pump, or a host of other things, but I really would like to hear why they diagnosed for the entire transmission to be rebuilt. Again it's not that it's impossible as I described above, things can happen. It just seems to me that your gear box wasn't exhibiting any of the symptoms I would consider for needing it rebuilt. I don't know I mean we are trying to diagnose on-line what only you can hear with your ears, and see with your eyes from there. Maybe something that you didn't consider as being an issue was happening in the process and didn't recognize it, or because the car seem to do it all the time was normal. But honestly I am stumped to think that one day I could be driving my car and what would seem like an improper clutch engagement problem, with no F1 indicator lights or "CC" lights, and the fact that when the transmission does engage I can nail it and there's no noise just perfect acceleration that low and behold my transmission needs to be rebuilt because of an engagement problem. Did I miss something guys? I'm by far the cat's butt (to keep from using other colorful adjectives) when it comes to absolute Master Mechanic car repair, but I've dealt with blown gear boxes before, and there were pre-cursors along the way. Can one of the guys who's had this problem help me here. I just want to make sure the OP isn't being taken for a ride. I would like to understand what happened so please OP since you seem to be paying already for the education share it with the class.

 

[hodroyd]

Geoff,
On the later (facelift) 42's, the gearbox settings were improved slightly by software to make them smoother and the clutch was also changed very slightly. If an early 42 has had these upgrades then the change should be very similar. What is your gearchange like when you are not driving enthusiastically, is gentle driving exactly the same, or better when you consider the gearchange..??
Cheers
R

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Geoff, I think I might of forgot to ask you this when I posted above when you stated that the Mechanic adjusted the PIS, he did do this with the DBW out/off correct? He didn't try to set the PIS with it on? It can mess with the system if I understand correctly. I had my ECU flashed by an import company so I've never used the DBW but that being said from the guys I know of who use it they always set the PIS with it out/off....

 

[Emtee]

well little update, seems its a clutch and poss gearbox out to be sent to specialist. so very large bill anyone had experience with having gearbox out to be recond, any recommendadtion of gaage to use as i need to get the cost down

Hi Enzo,

For what it's worth I would not advise a new clutch be taken for granted. It's been suggested in the past that if you have to go in there you may as well change the clutch (and ancillaries if needed) whilst in there, but the prices have changed and so this is not as true nowadays.

I would ask for the clutch to be removed and inspected to physically check the wear and the condition of the springs. The ancillaries can be checked along with the flywheel and the clutch position sensor at the same time, however given your previous reading was 34 percent worn, if nothing is found to be wrong, why throw more than a thousand pounds replacing perfectly good components. Tell them to dismantle, inspect and then act according to what they find rather than what they think, but keep the wallet handily as, if the clutch and or ancillaries are at fault, then it's absolutely correct they should be replaced.

Just my two-penneth.