GS - taking time to go into gear

[Emtee]

My QP box has just been rebuilt due to bearing issues, which seems to be a very un common problem. Kevin and Vic of Migliore cars in Bromsgrove carried out the work for me and although the final bill was not small, it was reasonable considering the time and parts it took to get it back to full health

Andy


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Andy, do you know which bearing? Was it on the axel shafts rather than the in the gearbox? If yes, and therefore related to the differential rather than the gearbox, then there are other instances of this.

 

[Emtee]

Craig I would value your opinion on this. My car is a2006 GS LE with 28,000 miles on her. At the annual service my indie adjusted the PIS. Down to 4.2 which I think is below the recommended setting. I also have the FD DBW module fitted. What he has done has made the gear change very snappy but to me also feels mechanically brutal and I am concerned that such a low setting is going to lead to failure of something prematurely in a car that has been 100% reliable. What do you think?

I've read of numerous other examples of clutches set this close, but if you don't like the feel then open it back up. You should be getting a throttle blip yes? This is effectively a double de-clutch and it's designed into the software to control the torque, You don't need to worry about engaging two disks both rotating at the same speed, no matter how quickly you bring them together. It's when they're rotating at different speeds that excessive wear occurs, but at the end of the day the clutch is a wear item no matter what tinkering you do.

 

[Emtee]

On my late 42CC which is the same in almost all respects to the GS, if in Sport, which is what I usually drive in, I can drive around without accelerating hard and the shift is quite smooth, as soon as I change style and push the throttle hard in to high revs then change gear, the shift is very fast and could be considered as savage by some. So the same PIS setting is giving both smooth and hard changes dependant on the driving style.

Nothing to do with the PIS Rob. PIS is simply a gap. What you're describing it what the software chooses to do in managing the components as they create and then close this gap within a given period of time.

The reason it feels more harsh when you push on is because you've passed the rev threshold designed into the software that tells the car to perform the same function more quickly.

 

[Emtee]

Thanks Craig, for every action there is a reaction. When he adjusted it so low I was concerned that anything below the recommended factory threshold had to come with some risk and I think you have articulated that risk very well. Interestingly enough I have driven a couple of 4200's and their gear change is definitely more brutal than a standard GS. I wonder whether the 4200 PIS recommended setting is lower than a standardGS. I think I did read somewhere that the software in the 4200 is different to the GS.
Anyway I think I am going to err on the side of caution and have it reset within factory recommended parameters.
Thanks again for your comprehensive response.
Geoff

Hi Geoff, were they early or late 4200's and were they standard?

As I've mentioned above, this is nothing to do with PIS in and of itself. The GS is smoother because the software (and some components) are better attuned to handle the torque transfer, which is why there have been many comments over the years that the 4200 (early) feels more aggressive than the GS.

 

[Emtee]

Interesting comments from all here. I have my GS going in for a PIS adjustment to improve the speed of gear change and this is making me consider otherwise. My plan is to go out with the tech and try different settings to see where i'm comfortable and happy.

Before I do that, i'll read the outcome of this thread with interest.

Do hope your gearbox is not toasted too although I have an inkling that it's not and that there is a settings issue somewhere.

Outrun, that's a very sensible approach. PIS is a variable that affects the 'feel' of gear changing and it has an advised range, so why not tune it to your liking within that range, however you aren't changing the speed of the gear change, just it's smoothness / brutality rating.

 

[EnzoMC]

Hi Enzo,

For what it's worth I would not advise a new clutch be taken for granted. It's been suggested in the past that if you have to go in there you may as well change the clutch (and ancillaries if needed) whilst in there, but the prices have changed and so this is not as true nowadays.

I would ask for the clutch to be removed and inspected to physically check the wear and the condition of the springs. The ancillaries can be checked along with the flywheel and the clutch position sensor at the same time, however given your previous reading was 34 percent worn, if nothing is found to be wrong, why throw more than a thousand pounds replacing perfectly good components. Tell them to dismantle, inspect and then act according to what they find rather than what they think, but keep the wallet handily as, if the clutch and or ancillaries are at fault, then it's absolutely correct they should be replaced.

Just my two-penneth.

i totally agree, just before the track day i was given a goodish bill of health on the car amd to be honest i didn't do anywhere near what the others were doing on the day. i also dont feel i push the car to limits (only myself). so i am totally shocked that the gear box / clutch has been damaged.

if they remove the clutch to inspect - isn't this most of the cost, therefore only saving about £700



i also spoke to autoshield who seemed very helpful and said that not much in the gear boxes can be fixed and you can't get recons only second hand units which was only about £1500, very surprised on this cost but just dont know how good the box would be. he did say if the clutch is burnt then it would need replacing....

 

[Emtee]

i totally agree, just before the track day i was given a goodish bill of health on the car amd to be honest i didn't do anywhere near what the others were doing on the day. i also dont feel i push the car to limits (only myself). so i am totally shocked that the gear box / clutch has been damaged.

if they remove the clutch to inspect - isn't this most of the cost, therefore only saving about £700



i also spoke to autoshield who seemed very helpful and said that not much in the gear boxes can be fixed and you can't get recons only second hand units which was only about £1500, very surprised on this cost but just dont know how good the box would be. he did say if the clutch is burnt then it would need replacing....

Hi Enzo, To drop a clutch is about 5 hours labour each way, so based on £50 - £60.00 ph......

After that it's the time to inspect, report and replace, but a quick check on Eurospares / Hills Engineering will give you an idea of the potential component cost over and above the labour.

The balance has changed as the cars get older. Labour per hour has reduced as the cars pass into the (knowledgeable) domain of the indi's, whereas (none equivalenced) part costs have increased.

I have a sticky clutch sensor (nothing serious and not uncommon, just something that does my head in) which manifests itself as potentially all sorts of things, I told my garage to take everything out and check it. It cost me just the wrong side of £1K to check what was going on. If I'd just let a less scrupulous operation work through their 'process of elimination', the bill would have certainly begun with a 2, possibly a 3.

You won't go wrong with Autoshield. About as good as they come, but ask them to consider whether it's diff rather than gearbox, and what the options are if this is the culprit.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

@Emtee, I agree with you about software in the different model vehicles, I think sometimes at least for myself I have learned to read into what people are saying, and try to explain it the best way possible just to carry on a conversation. But maybe I over simplify things and I should be more technical. So here's for the guys that really would like this that way, I will start with the DBW system by FD which is important with setting the PIS.

The DBW system is basically using the CAN-line containing the throttle position and essentially it tricks the TCU into thinking that the operator of the vehicle is pushing the pedal harder than it is. This causes the TCU to call up the software to demand a quicker shifting speed. This is why it should be disconnected when adjusting the PIS.

The PIS or Punto di Incipiente Slittamento (English Point of Initial Slip), is a parameter (measured in mm usually respectively between 4.2mm-5mm) that speaks to the TCU telling it where the bite point of the clutch begins. (Good analogy here is where you raise your foot off the clutch pedal and feel the initial bite where it engages). The PIS is entered into the TCU (running the software) when a new clutch is installed and an algorithm essentially works out how it changes as the clutch wears. You are told your clutch wear from this as well when you do the read out. It's very important for the TCU to have accurate data to run the software that it's using because essentially if you tell the transmission's computer the PIS is somewhere it's not it either slips or throws everything together to soon. Essentially the software inside the TCU isn't incorrect the parameters it was given to run it were.

To properly set the PIS on your car you are going to need an SD2/3 or equivalent. The car needs to be running and in neutral (Emergency brake please). You are going to lower the PIS while monitoring the input shaft of the gearbox.....you increase the PIS a degree when you first notice movement in the shaft.....release the "E" brake hit first gear and see if the car creeps forward.....if it does increase it another degree. Again you are simulating releasing a clutch pedal and feeling that bite/kiss/initial engagement or whatever word you like there, as the clutch engages. If the PIS is set to high the TCU expects it to bite when it doesn't, this will cause the TCU to hunt for the engagement point and slips the clutch when it doesn't find it. The same is true on the other end of this, at least I believe it is, and I'm wrong a lot according to my wife .....If you set the PIS to low the TCU is told the clutch isn't engaged when in actuality it is....it engages too early....ever pop a clutch? So it is very true, the software is important in whatever TCU that you have in the car either earlier or later, but like anything with software, when you input wrong data parameters.....you get wrong results. I still disagree that it doesn't matter how fast you engage the clutch or those parameters but that's just me personally. As long as people have an informed decision I suppose they can do what feels best to them.

@Enzo...absolutely correct my man the cost is in the labor, at least in the U.S, maybe it's different over there. If you take it apart do yourself a favor spend the money now,......well if you don't intend to keep the car don't, if you do plan to keep it, replace it (though the new owner you sell it to will love you for it if you do). The CPS clutch position sensor is a hot item that tends to sometimes go in these cars.....make sure you resurface or replace your flywheel with the new clutch if not it could eat your clutch up sooner than expected. I am hoping the throw out bearing is a given.....I've never taken apart a transmission for a clutch job and not replaced it. In the long run if one of those other components fail the shop can not be held liable for it if you don't replace it. So if they split that gearbox apart again you are paying for everything (by everything I mean labor) all over again. If you replace everything and one of those parts fail they usually warranty them....they cover the cost.

 

[hodroyd]

Miles,
I was trying to establish whether or not the gearchange was savage at all speeds and driving styles, if it was, then something in the gearbox is not right and needs attention. I never got an answer so don't know what is actually happening in the car for sure.
Cheers
R

 

[EnzoMC]

craig i agree whilst off would make sense but as its already mounting to lots of money out the exhaust (as you said). i am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I would look to keep the existing clutch if in good condition but a good point made is any issues the garage will foot the bill - as i am looking to keep the car until the Maserati-Centenary-Trip

 

[AndyG]

Andy, do you know which bearing? Was it on the axel shafts rather than the in the gearbox? If yes, and therefore related to the differential rather than the gearbox, then there are other instances of this.

Hi Miles,

A rather expensive story actually, the car had been stood for about 18months ouside before i bought her (at the right price) and knowing it was on its second clutch (changed at 22k and showing 56k) i have run her for about 8 months and have carried out a full service with all the fluids changed early on, i decided even though the clutch was showing some 75% worn that. as it was not showing any symptons of failing i would leave it till early 2014 before changing, however just before my holiday to italy it developed a bearing whine from the bell housing area which i wrongly assumed was the output support bearing in the housing, it was subsequently booked into Migliore cars for Kev and Vic to change the clutch and bearing.

Vic rang me while i was sunbathing by the pool to inform me that the bearing had indeed failed and spun in the housing, but they had managed to effect a good repair and glue the new bearing in place and fitted the new clutch and all the nice shiny bits that i had supplied to ensure everything was up to scratch.......But the bearing noise was still there.....B******s.

Anyway after much testing stripping and listening it was decided that the noise was being transmitted from the gearbox up the torque tube, into the bell housing just like a megaphone, so it was decided to remove the gearbox and carryout a simple front end strip to see what could be seen. The up shot was, that the main input shaft bearing had some deep pitting and every other bearing in the gearbox was displaying the same issue, the oil pump was also damaged to the same degree, we then carried out a full strip of gears and synchro's, cleaned and rebuilt the box with new bearings and pump refitted and low and behold we have silence, and a perfect change, along with a hole in my wallet.

My only conclusion looking at the damaged bearings is water damage, as i have said above, this car lived outside for nearly 18 months and in that time did less than 100 miles, so it may have collected condensation in the gearbox that sat on the bearings and in the pump slowly eating away at the surfaces, so a warning to all, If you keep your Masser outside and dont use daily, ensure you change the oil in the gearbox at least once a year, and try not to do short runs, get the gearbox oil hot and get rid of any condensation that may have built up.

Andy

 

[MAF260]

Wow, Andy. Sounds very unfortunate as I've not heard of that happening before. Which part of the country did the car sit outside? I've heard and seen some horror stories of cars from Scotland rusting just about everything made of metal.

Just goes to show that these cars like being used.

 

[AndyG]

Norwich....What was a right priced car isn't now, and just to add insult to injury iv'e just kerbed my n/s new Trident...double b******s



Andy

 

[CraigWaterman11]

@Enzo, brother I definitely feel your pain in this. Ultimately friend regardless what anyone suggests it's your car and you have to foot the bill. You have to do what's best for you. That's all any of this is on the forum.....suggestions. Some could be called friends, or acquaintances, but regardless how close or far away we are you are paying for it. Your right it's absolutely expensive, and painful and as of yet I haven't heard anyone say they would pay for it for you. I know your not asking or expecting that but I say that to drive the point home that it doesn't matter what any of us like of dislike. Do what you can afford and be happy with. Some people have at times gotten away with just replacing small components and not replacing everything. I would definitely replace the CPS, and if the clutch discs and PP look good don't worry about resurfacing the fly wheel those components wear together. I personally would replace the throw-out bearing assembly as well. (I think I posted a video earlier from one being removed from a Quattroporte). Those two very specific parts would be my suggestion if you don't do anything else please replace those.

@Andy.....thank you for telling us your experience, and this is really why I wanted to know. On most occasions there are pre-cursors to gear box failure, I can understand with the loud bearing whine why it was the gear box in your situation, and I also understand with how the car sat for so long that condensation more than likely diluted the fluids, and rusted parts of the internals. This is actually why with oil changes they give you mileage and a date stamp on when to change it. Condensation can build up in a sitting vehicle and even if the oil is brand new when put in the condensation won't mix with the oil and you can get a huge problem from it. It doesn't only apply to oil changes but gear box fluid to. I really appreciate your response.

 

[Emtee]

Hi Miles,

A rather expensive story actually, the car had been stood for about 18months ouside before i bought her (at the right price) and knowing it was on its second clutch (changed at 22k and showing 56k) i have run her for about 8 months and have carried out a full service with all the fluids changed early on, i decided even though the clutch was showing some 75% worn that. as it was not showing any symptons of failing i would leave it till early 2014 before changing, however just before my holiday to italy it developed a bearing whine from the bell housing area which i wrongly assumed was the output support bearing in the housing, it was subsequently booked into Migliore cars for Kev and Vic to change the clutch and bearing.

Vic rang me while i was sunbathing by the pool to inform me that the bearing had indeed failed and spun in the housing, but they had managed to effect a good repair and glue the new bearing in place and fitted the new clutch and all the nice shiny bits that i had supplied to ensure everything was up to scratch.......But the bearing noise was still there.....B******s.

Anyway after much testing stripping and listening it was decided that the noise was being transmitted from the gearbox up the torque tube, into the bell housing just like a megaphone, so it was decided to remove the gearbox and carryout a simple front end strip to see what could be seen. The up shot was, that the main input shaft bearing had some deep pitting and every other bearing in the gearbox was displaying the same issue, the oil pump was also damaged to the same degree, we then carried out a full strip of gears and synchro's, cleaned and rebuilt the box with new bearings and pump refitted and low and behold we have silence, and a perfect change, along with a hole in my wallet.

My only conclusion looking at the damaged bearings is water damage, as i have said above, this car lived outside for nearly 18 months and in that time did less than 100 miles, so it may have collected condensation in the gearbox that sat on the bearings and in the pump slowly eating away at the surfaces, so a warning to all, If you keep your Masser outside and dont use daily, ensure you change the oil in the gearbox at least once a year, and try not to do short runs, get the gearbox oil hot and get rid of any condensation that may have built up.

Andy

Hi Andy,

You're a gent. Thank you for your comments and detail. It's very pertinent to this thread. For what it's worth, and especially given the financial pain this will have inflicted, I admire your approach. Dismantle, inspect, act accordingly.

Also interested by your comment on the oil pump. I'm fortunate to have a garage that will tolerate me visiting regularly to view the exotica going though and to chew the cud, so I'm there once a month or so and I've seen or have been told of 3 QP's with the same issue within the last 18 months or so. Last time I visited they had a 4200 Spyder in for the same reason and I was told that Maserati SpA are now out of stock of replacement pumps, so there's a story here that's still to fully present itself.

I'm popping in tomorrow morning to have them play with my PIS setting ahead of Llandow next week, so I'll try to find further examples similar to your unfortunate experience with the input shaft.

Again, thank you.

Regards, Miles.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

@Enzo
Hey Enzo, Emtee actually brought something to my attention and I didn't really realize this until he mentioned going to his shop. On the forum in the U.S. a lot of us guys do all the work on our own cars, we also have some Master Mechanic sponsors like ECS of Virginia on the forum always adding input(here's one of those exchanges for an oil sending unit in our cars that was pretty good I thought http://www.maseratilife.com/forums/coupe-spyder-gs/21470-oil-dipped-red-while-2.html), needless to say the ideas going back and forth about problems are actually pretty intriguing. I had a small gremlin in the wire problem that for the life of me couldn't figure out, and had a Ferrari/Maserati Master mechanic actually call me about on the phone and tell me a solution to it I over-looked trying to be to "deep" with the diagnosis. I hope you don't mind I referred your thread to someone's opinion I really enjoy who does all this same type work I do. Sometimes when I cannot figure out why a problem doesn't sound right to me I will send him a PM. Here is something he wrote that I didn't even think of. He's also been on the track a time or two and loves sarcastic humor either way here you go. Something to consider:

["Craig, it's no bother except I miss the PM notifications. I would guess that his track day has left his clutch glazed. It is possible to fix itself, but more likely to burn the flywheel first. His PIS may have been set too low. They can go to 4.2 but it is still car specific. The combo of it not being at say, 4.3 instead and racing the car could very easily glazed the clutch and so when it's under full clamp it seems ok but yet slips like a worn clutch . It also would not necessarily smell. At least not now. The CPS could be sketchy, but very unlikely. No moving parts. I would say there's almost zero chance he has a gearbox problem. Unless he changed it to an automatic."]

 

[Emtee]

Hi Craig,

Yes I'm very lucky to have my garage only ten minutes away from where I live. I popped in today and as it happens Tim, also a forum member, was there dropping his lovely QP off for service.

I took the opportunity to ask them about the questions that have arisen in this thread. I didn't ask too much about the possibilities of it being the clutch, as if this is the case then the solution will be clear, but I was interested to hear their comments on the gearbox, particularly given Andy's unfortunate experience.

Geoff had not come across an instance of the input bearing going, but he agreed with the symptoms Andy described and the corrective action taken by the guys at Migliore.

I'd previously chatted to Stu, Geoff's head mechanic, about what could cause the car to change gear erratically and even stall as per Enzo's situation, but most importantly what could do this without sending an error message.

Sticky position sensor was the most obvious, but this should throw an error message. A glazed flywheel is also a possibility, however there is a reading within the SD diagnostic system that allows this to be measured, so hopefully this has been carried out?

If it is the gearbox then you might expect a whine if it's a bearing, or if the gears aren't meshing fully, which can happen if a bearing is on its way out. There could possibly be some gear slap, which isn't uncommon on transaxles, but to be fair, not always problematic.

If it was something in the gearbox then this would not necessarily throw an error code.

Geoff confirmed half a day to remove the gearbox, and so half a day back in again. After that it's time to inspect, which shouldn't need to be any more than a day's labour max. The bearings are available from either Italy, but also from other sources, as the bearings are 'standard' sizing and specification. When I ask for a worst case scenario cost Geoff agreed £3K would be more than enough, which includes the ever painful VAT.

Not specifically pertinent to Enzo's situation, but mentioned by Andy is the ongoing issue of the oil/water pump, which is still out of stock at Maserati. Two cars in at the moment awaiting new pumps, but not because the spline had gone, but rather an emerging problem with the timing chain tensioner. On one of the cars this has gone and mashed the engine! On the other they caught it in time.

Whilst there I had them close my PIS ahead of a track day on Friday. I had it set at 5.1, but dropped it to 4.7 to get a snappier engagement. I'll probably change it back afterwards, as it's good fun when maxing it around a track, but a bit harsh for regular driving. Depends on your preference I guess.

I hope for the sake of Enzo's car and wallet that his problem turns out to be something simple to correct, and I'll await further news with interest.

 

[EnzoMC]

craig - not a problem, all help welcome. did think about the clutch being glazed but not sure how this could happen when iam not comtrolling the clutch, in sport mode the change is quick (during the day) so not much time for slip.

Miles - thanks for checking this out, i too hope its something simple and of course will keep all updated.

so this PIS setting, maybe i missed the meaning for this in a comment but from what i understand is this the pressure the on the clutch ? if this was set low then could cause the slipping and the glaze on the clutch

thanks everyone so very much for all the comments. one suggest from the misses was to trade in

 

[ENZ525]

...so this PIS setting, maybe i missed the meaning for this in a comment but from what i understand is this the pressure the on the clutch ? if this was set low then could cause the slipping and the glaze on the clutch...

Enzo, PIS stands for Point of Initial Slippage, it is also referred to as the KISS point, or Touch Point.
the value of, for example, 4.7 or 5.0 would be in millimeters.
The diagnostic tools used to adjust the PIS go through a procedure where the system carries out a series of clutch opening and closing cycles automatically,
with the gearbox in neutral, during which time data is gathered needed to calculate the touch point (PIS) correctly.
The operator will see a graph showing the current PIS position with 2 reference curves indicating the tollerance range within which the touch point curve must be located.

There is an interesting thread on Club Scuderia, which refers to an auto-pis adjustment procedure for a late 2000 F1 360...

http://www.clubscuderia.co.uk/forum...o-PIS-setting/page2&highlight=360+f1+auto+pis

I am in not suggesting anyone should follow the above, but this is the first time I have heard/read that such a procedure exists.

 

[Emtee]

Interesting Enzo, particularly post No.3. There are some unscrupulous garages that use the SD to tell the system it has a new clutch when it doesn't. Out of range PIS readings are a pointer towards this.